can you name any that either were invented in or are exclusive to "the west"?
(1 vote)
What is "Western Values"?
can you name any that either were invented in or are exclusive to "the west"?
Comments
(Old Spike)
The Magna Carta, The Bill of Rights, Self governence. Upward mobility from dirt poor to wealthy in a single generation. Common Law, The Philosohpy of Natural Law, Haebus Corpus. Republics.
(Site Administrator)
> Magna Carta (not a value)
It was annulled by the Pope.
> Bill of Rights (not a value)
The earliest one that I'm aware of is the Cyrus Cylinder - named after Cyrus the Great, arguably the leader of the first great empire / superpower of history (Persia), & created in 539 BC.
> Self governence
Who was governing the Zhou Dynasty from 1046 until 771 BC ... aliens?
(Old Spike)
Of course the Magna Carta and Bill of Rights are compendiums of values.
To think otherwise could only be presumed that rights are simply what your government allows. Which is false.
The Cyrus cylinder is not the same as THE bill of rights. Which outlines that people have the right to abolish their government under the conditions that they establish one that is more free and makes people happier.
The original magna Carta also outlined that the citizens have the right to insurrect against their government if it became abusive. Which was quickly rewritten within a couple decades by royalty lol.
Right in the article it states that in the zhou dynasty the nation states were ruled by lords under a caste system.
(Site Administrator)
> Of course the Magna Carta and Bill of Rights are compendiums of values
They're more of a codified power structure & this isn't a western invention, nor is the paper they're written on.
> To think otherwise could only be presumed that rights are simply what your government allows. Which is false.
This is an American-centric view which requires the assumption of a god authority because they're "god-given rights". Not all cultures have such a framing of civil rights but your god isn't a pre-requisite for the rights themselves. All that's required is the authority to grant such rights.
> The Cyrus cylinder is not the same as THE bill of rights
No it's not THE [American] Bill of Rights, it predates the existance of America by over 2,000 years.
But it is a bill of rights.
> in the zhou dynasty the nation states were ruled by lords under a caste system.
America was founded by & for slave-owning landlords... but how does this undermine the concept of self-rule?
> people have the right to abolish their government
Yeah they do, even if there's laws against it (which there is in the US). China abolished their central government 4 times last century & spent about 30 years barely even having one. How many times was American govt abolished in its 246 years of existance? Was even a state govt abolished in that time?
(Old Spike)
Even to those that don't believe in God, being born with Rights is still fact and inalienable.
You are born with the ability and desire to believe as you wish, to speak as you wish, to arm yourself with a spear against predators, and to live as you desire.
Whether the influence of the world diminishes that is dependant on the individual, but it not something can be taken, only given away.
If you die defending your rights then you died free.
Everyone dies, but not everyone dies for their freedom.
Rights arn't granted by authority. Authority is just an illusion. A game of pretend that most people either choose to buy into or are decieved into such.
I'm not talking about just any bill of rights compared to the cylinder you speak. I am talking about THE American bill of rights which is exclusively western, as per your question.
America was founded by slaves to the crown, that fought for their freedom, there were some slave owners among them. Not a perfect group of people, but though they took part in slavery (Mostly british aristocracy)
The Western world ended it.
If there is any fingers to point in regards to slavery, the arab nations and China are still guilty of it to this day, which shall not be margenalized.
It also depends on what form of slavery you speak?
Some slavery was legitimate as an agreed means to pay off crushing debt in exchange for time and labour.
The illegitimate means was through abduction and conquest.
The most insidious of all is simply debt and meaningless 9-5 work. Subtle, but it's effects undeniable. and THAT is everywhere.
(Site Administrator)
> America was founded by slaves to the crown, that fought for their freedom, there were some slave owners among them
bro every one of the founders bar one owned slaves. The one who didn't was a lawyer for slave owners.
> Even to those that don't believe in God, being born with Rights is still fact and inalienable.
this is something you need to realise - not everyone believes this. It gets into the consent of the governed. In NZ we don't really believe this I don't think although American culture has penetrated here since about the 1980s and some assume things are like this. I'm unsure if I'd call this a Western Value but I think we're getting close to something that could be called this. It does harken back to the enlightenment which was a Western European Christian thing & is where our liberal ideology is rooted I think.
> If there is any fingers to point in regards to slavery, the arab nations and China are still guilty of it to this day, which shall not be margenalized.
Some Gulf States (US allies) are doing something similar to slavery. China isn't but their labour rights aren't exactly on par with Denmark. My point wasn't to point fingers, it was just to get to the bottom of what is western values & I don't think the US Bill of Rights really cuts it.
> It also depends on what form of slavery you speak?
yeah of course. It's a bit of a can of worms but we can safely say the US wasn't founded on "all humans are equal". It was more like "land-owning white men shouldn't be under the king" (and we don't want the East India Company to monopolize our tea market nor pay taxes to London any more).
America is the only influencial western nation who did this though, the rest of us in the colonies just slowly gained independence from the crown. France is more akin to the US in this regard & had their revolution against the monarchy around the same time as US. US & France fed off each other with their liberal thought.
Anyway, good chat, I might come back to this later, I wanna find a good explanation of the "god given rights" concept from someone more articulate.
(Old Spike)
Bit more complicated than people didn't want to be under the king.
The king was constantly creeping on the colonies with infringement of their private affairs. He tried to ban certain freedom of assembly, and kept levying heavier taxes. The tea tax was the straw that broke the camels back. Patriots started beating the tax collectors and sending them back.
With some encouragment from anaymous newsletters put out by either Adams or franklin, can't remember which. The founding fathers met up and signed the declaration with citizen support after much colony deliberation.
The war started when the king respondeed with an army on orders to seize the powder reserves and guns. It was do or be enslaved, and the Republic was born.
Rights don't need articulation really. Just courage. The reason people believe that rights are granted by authority is because they are unwilling to deal with the consequences that come with defiance.
The rest of the commonwealth is paying a heavy price from abusive authoritarian governments because they never fought to free themselves.
America has problems (Mostly engineered by design.) But, most states still have their freedom. The states that had the least restrictions virus numbers are better per capita than the most authortarian states.
All men created equal was certainly te intent, and largely realized. The Slavery system was primarily maintained by the British aristocracy that subverted the legislature of different states. The battle for America's soul began right away, and the global elite were absolutely outraged that America had won, and have been working intergenerationally since the beginning to destroy it.
The main weakness of Republics is that they need vigilence and maintenence of blood from the people lest they succumb to corruption and yeild to femenine democracy instead. Which without a repuublic as the core, democracy is just the enslavement of the 49% to the 51%.
(Site Administrator)
> The rest of the commonwealth is paying a heavy price from abusive authoritarian governments because they never fought to free themselves.
Swapping out one wealthy elite with another may give you more local overlords but you still have overlords ... and taxes. In the other 3 British colonies in 5 eyes we only really have a ceremonial link with the crown now but Canada & Australia are almost like dominions of the US in terms of sovereignty over their foreign policy. This is due to their size, location & the raw power of US & our histories as a kind of trusted network or some shit. From Aus/Canada's POV though it's just like they swapped out UK for US as their big brother. US may have real self-determination & sovereignty but that's more to do with the size of its economy & military.
Say Australia became a republic, barely anything would change unless they deleted their NatSec establishment which is currently all-in with the yanks. There's barely any room between them, they're like a white Japan at this point, full vassal status.
> The Slavery system was primarily maintained by the British aristocracy that subverted the legislature of different states
Yeah I dunno man. The Brits were more proactive on abolishing slavery than the US. They were already moving on it before the American rebellion & enacted it not long after. US took another half a century iirc.
> democracy is just the enslavement of the 49% to the 51%.
IMO liberal democracy under capitalism is really suboptimal but it actually isn't too bad in a country like NZ - few security concerns & small enough for some accountability to keep the govt in check. Not powerful or rich enough to encourage deep corruption to take place. No oil helps too. Wouldn't want the Americans to install democracy here like they did to Aus in 1976 (or the roughly 100 other states since wwii).
(Old Spike)
It's not really a nation thing. That format of viewing the world stage is outdated, but also that's not quite common knowledge, (but rapidly changing)
It really is about the SUPER rich families among other select group puppeting nations through their installed people in all levels of government.
If humanity can unite and liquidate them and redistribute then every one in every nation will have a chance at a functioning republic, which is what I believe everyone deserves.
To do that, we have to defeat the great reset first.
I believe that 99% of people are good, there is simply 1% that will stop at nothing to take advantage of that and set people and nations against each other through their governments.
If you were to ask what western values remain, That would be a good question.
I would have to say not many. But, they are one of the keys to humanity having a bright and cooperative future with real equality and proper upward mobility for anyone willing to work hard enough.
(Site Administrator)
(Old Spike)
3 logical fallacies in one comment wow. failing to think for yourself is making your brain atrophy even more.
(Old Spike)
nailed it! would maybe add meritocracy to that list though. nepotism, cronyism, and other related -isms are much rarer in the west thanks to our values. even in countries that still have monarchies, we recognise that they should have little real power.
(Old Spike)
I would consider meritocracy a more universal value.
In eastern cultures mastery and honor has been historicly held in high regard.
Especially Japan. Long traditions of picking a path and spending nearly all of your energy in the pursuit of perfection.
Though standing and orderlyness has been strictly upheld in most circumstances, there was a path for improving your standing through unwavering honor and exceptionalism. You may not become Emperor, but nobility from poverty was possible though slim.
(Site Administrator)
> Especially Japan
you just made him cum, he's a weeb btw, not a jap
Japan is the black sheep of East Asia & was in the stone age until the Chinese taught them metalergy in the 6th Century AD - when they introduced Japan to modern civilization. Chinese were master craftsmen over a thousand years before this. Almost everything you can name that's "traditional Japanese culture" is inherited from China/Korea. See if you can name something that's not.
Japan's image is warped in the west, the result of how they're portrayed in the media mainly - we were willing to give them sympathetic PR since they became a US vassal after WWII, with the exception of the late 1980s when their economy had grown so quickly (thanks Uncle Sam) that the West did to them what they're trying to do to China now - hybrid war in an attempt to slow them down. Japan's since had a 35 year "lost decade" and they peaked in the 1990s. They still have some advanced tech but Korea is kicking their ass in high tech now & Taiwan is out-classing everyone in bleeding edge chip manufacturing.