Shenzhen was a fishing village 50 years ago & is already decades ahead of any Canadian city.
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backdraft (Dixie Normous: Image specialist)
The internet still lagging behind. For some weird reason, Chinese people have to use a VPN to access the WWW
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danmanjones (Old Spike)
Facebook, Twitter & Google are not the WWW.
China is way ahead of us when it comes to using the internet. They pay for everything with their phones & their e-commerce solutions are way ahead. Amazon has been in China for years but hasn't been able to keep up & has ~1% market share. Companies headquarted in Shenzhen kicked Amazon's ass in China by just being better. Another company in Shenzhen is the largest mobile phone network creator in the world & one of the largest handset creators - its technological advancements scare Washington so much they launched a global boycott campaign & had the CFO arrested by their vassal state of Canada.
If you're looking for Western supremacy talking points, you really should leave the internet out of the conversation.
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backdraft (Dixie Normous: Image specialist)
Ok so we should just ignore China's great firewall? You don't think censoring the internet is a problem?
I work for a company that imports goods from China. A few years ago I suggested to one of our agents a VPN (might have been that he asked it, can't recall). So I gave him a 2 years subscription for a Finnish VPN provider. The guy was super happy and said it really helped out since now he could use Google and other services in his business. He actually was a bit apprehensive at first and said to me he won't use it for anything bad and not to spread propaganda. It made me smirk, but that's the stance of the Chinese government has. Chinese people should see everything that's on the internet.
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danmanjones (Old Spike)
Chinese people can see everything that's on the internet. They just need a VPN for some things. VPNs aren't illegal in China.
What I think about censoring the internet is not black n white. All countries do it to some degree. Eg. kiddie porn, the pirate bay, 4chan, anti-PC or "terrorist" stuff on twitter/facebook. Political leaders from countries Washington hates are suspended from Twitter all the time.
I don't use Weibo because I can't read Chinese. Chinese mostly don't use Twitter because some don't read English but mostly because they use Weibo instead. Baidu works much better in China that Google does for similar reasons to why Amazon failed to gain traction - it understands the market better & is more localised. They don't need Facebook, they have WeChat & it's way better than Facebook.
I'll go even further, I would firewall Google & Facebook out of my country & invest in localised versions if I had the chance to here in NZ. I'm somewhat of a cyber-nationalist but that's a can of worms we can get into if you want to know the reasons behind it.
Do I think China should loosen their firewall?
No probably not at this point. I prefer that it's uncommon for Chinese to mix in cesspools like Twitter & Facebook. At least while the West is pumping out so much anti-China propaganda. It could cause xenophobia to rise in China. It's already becoming embarrassing to go there as a white person thanks to Trump/Pompeo.
Do I think it's up to me to decide what's best for them?
Hell no. It's their country.
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backdraft (Dixie Normous: Image specialist)
"Chinese people can see everything that's on the internet. They just need a VPN for some things. VPNs aren't illegal in China."
Yes, and why do you think this is so? There's been a massive surge in VPN use in China, so obviously people want to see what's behind the great firewall.
We're not talking about censoring kiddie porn, pirate sites or extremist ideologies. Just basic things like google search which I'm sure a lot of English speaking Chinese people would appreciate. Just like our agent did. Maybe a Chinese person would be interested in searching about "tank man Tiananmen square". I bet you don't get a lot of results on Baidu.
China pumps out propaganda just like the west does. It's up to the people to decide what to believe. Sure it's a clusterfuck here in the "free internet side" too. It's filled with echo chambers, but at least there's multiple echo chambers that counter each other if your willing to look at the bigger picture. With a closed internet, you get only one echo chamber.
Yeah, I'd like to hear why you would want to firewall Google / Facebook off from NZ. I don't see why someone couldn't come up with a local version if that's what you're looking for and why they couldn't exist side by side so people could choose what to use.
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danmanjones (Old Spike)
We're not talking about censoring kiddie porn, pirate sites or extremist ideologies
Yes we are. Facebook was blocked after they refused to allow PRC govt to play a role in censoring extremist content in the wake of the 2009 riots in Urumqi where Uyghurs killed over a hundred people in ethnic violence that was organised on Facebook. Google was blocked following a fallout with the PRC govt over pornographic search results - pornography isn't as legal there as it is here so is treated similar to how we deal with kiddie porn.
Regardless, those are some examples of what we censor because that's our choice to censor that stuff. Just like it's their choice to censor what they do. I don't agree with all of the censorship that goes on on either side but I think it's a good thing that kids can't easily access porn at a young age. The VPN requirement helps in this way.
There's been a massive surge in VPN use in China
I wouldn't put it that way. It's been growing as their internet usage grows & currently around 10% of Chinese netizens sometimes use VPN, mainly for checking out news sites that are blocked or for entertainment AFAIK. Kinda like the way I look at Chinese news/social media sites sometimes & translate them just to look around, it's not really important but I'm curious enough to see another angle. I have to jump through hoops to read that stuff, all they have to do is run a VPN because they're taught English at their school. In fact when you put it all together we're the ones who are ignorant out of their culture & local media, not the other way around.
It's up to the people to decide what to believe
If you understand Chinese history you'll see why they're extra sensitive to dissident groups. Last century alone they had 4 revolutions. It's up to them how they use the internet IMO.
why you would want to firewall Google / Facebook off from NZ
1. Around 90% of online advertising revenue goes straight out the door, tax free to these 2 foreign companies.
2. I would use public funds to build up local versions which would
a. encourage more NZ-flavoured community & culture to flourish
b. provide more jobs in the tech sector for kiwis to improve their skills which would lead to more tech innovation & services (a lucrative field going forward)
c. give NZ bargaining leverage to let Google & Facebook back in on our terms
The terms to let these tech giants back in would be that we take a slice of the advertising revenue and more importantly that we get to capture the big data. The big data is the most valuable part of what's going out the door for free. It's crucial for things such as AI. We are giving this away to foreign private companies (who share it to their govt, who then give us limited access using their own anlyitical tools but only for the spooks to carry out certain missions) & it's a big mistake.
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backdraft (Dixie Normous: Image specialist)
"Yes we are. Facebook was blocked after they refused to allow PRC govt to play a role in censoring extremist content in the wake of the 2009 riots..."
You are, but I'm not. My point is they censor more than just the above. Censoring facts & history is another thing altogether. It's a way of controlling the people.
"If you understand Chinese history you'll see why they're extra sensitive to dissident groups. Last century alone they had 4 revolutions. It's up to them how they use the internet IMO"
Revolutions happen for a reason, and obviously people are discontent if they do happen.
Yes, it's up to them how to use the internet. Just like North Korea has the right to do as they please. All I'm saying I don't believe that's the way forward. Censorship is always done to cover up some shady shit or to hold on to power.
"Around 90% of online advertising revenue goes straight out the door, tax free to these 2 foreign companies"
And whose fault is that? That's like complaining that another company is taking all of my customers because my business model sucks so I want to ban them from doing business in my area.
"I would use public funds to build up local versions which would
a. encourage more NZ-flavoured community & culture to flourish..."
Sorry but I don't see your point. It seems like your just looking for someone to blame...
You can do all those things with or without Google.
Now I do agree that Google and FB have grown too big and powerful, but that's only because there's no competition. Well, FB does, but Google doesn't. IMO you can't ban / firewall them, the only way you can beat them is to create a better product.
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danmanjones (Old Spike)
the only way you can beat them is to create a better product
Yes & then when it becomes a rival of any kind they will buy it.
Censoring facts & history is another thing altogether. It's a way of controlling the people.
Censoring facts by blocking Facebook? LOL
You seem to be thinking that Google is some kind of keeper of facts. It is just a search engine. It employs filters of which the algorithms are kept as a closely guarded secret. It's in bed with the US government & shows different results depending on the region you're searching from. Most of what you find on Google rwt history is biased in one way or another.
I agree with your premise about censoring information but it's not something unique to China & like I've already said, VPNs are a thing.
I don't think you really understand what it would take to compete with Google's dominance of the internet search space. We can agree to disagree about it since you won't address the core issues advertising revenue & big data being pilfered from our country. You've also ignored the fact that I'm not opposed to them operating here, just on different terms. NZ is a sovereign nation & we should decide what our internet looks like, nobody else. We have no obligation to let any company operate here & if we let them it should be on terms we can all agree on. Some European states are going through this same struggle about taxing the advertising revenue right now. NZ doesn't have the same leverage as large EU states & we'd need to be creative about how we forced them to give us our cut. It's our userbase they're getting for free. Blindly carrying on how things are for some ideological reason to do with censorship is a fool's errand IMO. The good that could come out of us incubating our own tech would far outweigh the negative side of forcing people to use VPN to get onto Google.
Revolutions happen for a reason, and obviously people are discontent if they do happen.
Yeah and it's the problem of the administration to meet the needs of the people. This problem doesn't disappear because Google or Facebook are blocked. The Chinese govt listens to what the people say online & adjust accordingly. They have a special site for people to make complaints & should there be enough people with the same complaint they will respond & do something about it. There is no need for people to organise underground on Facebook and as the riots in 2009 showed, it's dangerous to let this take place. You need to understand that there are 1.4 billion people in China with a long history of civil unrest.
Have you ever bothered to find out what the people of China think about the GFW?
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backdraft (Dixie Normous: Image specialist)
"Censoring facts by blocking Facebook? LOL"
As I said they censor a lot more than facebook. Basically they want to ban most things that they can't control. One might wonder why the Chinese government is so worried about civil unrest? Does China have a disproportionate number of hooligans?
"You seem to be thinking that Google is some kind of keeper of facts. It is just a search engine."
Yes, exactly it's just a search engine. Not the gatekeeper of truth. So why block it?
"I don't think you really understand what it would take to compete with Google's dominance of the internet search space."
Oh I do. But that doesn't mean it can't be done. The thing is, nobody's even trying.
"You've also ignored the fact that I'm not opposed to them operating here, just on different terms."
In case you forgot, here's what you said:
'll go even further, I would firewall Google & Facebook out of my country & invest in localised versions if I had the chance to here in NZ."
"NZ is a sovereign nation & we should decide what our internet looks like, nobody else"
Sure, you can create your own little corner of the internet that's relevant to your country. The problem is that the web is worldwide, that is unless you make your China-style firewall.
"The Chinese govt listens to what the people say online & adjust accordingly."
LOL I'm starting to think you really are Chinese. Why would a New Zealander be so passionate about upholding China's image?
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danmanjones (Old Spike)
One might wonder why the Chinese government is so worried about civil unrest? Does China have a disproportionate number of hooligans?
They have a long history of peasent uprisings, thousands of attempts & a bunch of successful ones. They also have 1.4 billion people to administer with a diverse population. You need to understand that it's not like our countries which, assuming you're in Canada/US/Aus, were templated from relatively stable Western civilisation with a (short) history of relatively open access to information.
Also, just a century ago the vast majority were illiterate. It wasn't until the CCP took power in 1949 that mass education even started & it took about 30 years to get 75% literacy. They were also late getting onto the internet, people didn't have PCs en masse until the 2000s & cellphones didn't take off until around 2010.
It's a different society man, it has different problems to ours. They will transition to more open access to information out of the West but there are pressures that you can't just discount for your own personal ideological reasons. China doesn't need to copy how the West runs things. They can have their own search engine, their own version of Facebook etc & get along just fine. In the case of Facebook they've built something far superior in WeChat. Facebook is now trying to copy WeChat in some ways - LibreCoin was a rip off of the WeChat wallet. It failed though because nobody trusts Facebook to own a currency.
it's just a search engine. Not the gatekeeper of truth. So why block it?
I disagree. Google's search algorithm makes it a gatekeeper. Who decides what results come up when I search for something on there? The News search results are a blatant example of gatekeeping. Ever wondered why no articles come up on there from Chinese news sources when you search for something happening in China?
In case you forgot, here's what you said:
Maybe you forgot I also said they can operate here but on our terms. Firewalling them out is just a way to force them to comply with how I would like them to operate. This is exactly what China did & they've benefited from the result in a number of ways, even though they still haven't come to terms both sides agreed on.
Sure, you can create your own little corner of the internet that's relevant to your country. The problem is that the web is worldwide, that is unless you make your China-style firewall.
You're just being condescending & failing to consider what could be possible if we built our own search engine with public backing, or community site like Facebook. For a start the revenue & big data would come back into our country. Culturally it would enhance our community & national identity. It would take time to get something as efficient as Google for search results but these are just results of things that exist on the web. You're conflating blocking Google with blocking every site on the internet. That's naive.
LOL I'm starting to think you really are Chinese. Why would a New Zealander be so passionate about upholding China's image?
I'm not trying to uphold their image dude. I'm explaining to you the reality (as I understand it). If it goes against some negative view you had that's on you.
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backdraft (Dixie Normous: Image specialist)
"They have a long history of peasent uprisings, thousands of attempts & a bunch of successful ones....It's a different society man, it has different problems to ours...."
Yes, I've seen what plenty of videos / documentaries what the rural side of China looks like, what the conditions are and why there might be a lot of resistance to the way things are handled by the government. Maybe there's western spin on it, but if even 50% of it's true it's no wonder they like to riot given the chance.
"Google's search algorithm makes it a gatekeeper. Who decides what results come up when I search for something on there?"
Yes just like Baidu would prioritize based on their algorithm. They are the gatekeepers of truth for China. What do you think, could Chinese people get a more balanced view if they could use both Baidu and Google? How about Bing, can they use that? Why force people to use a VPN to get more info?
"Maybe you forgot I also said they can operate here but on our terms."
Dan:
I'll go even further, I would firewall Google & Facebook out of my country & invest in localised versions if I had the chance to here in NZ.
Me:
Yeah, I'd like to hear why you would want to firewall Google / Facebook off from NZ.
I was interested why you'd want to firewall Google and FB, so I asked, but now it's about different terms. Let's just drop it then.
"You're just being condescending & failing to consider what could be possible if we built our own search engine with public backing, or community site like Facebook"
No, I'm not just convinced it would make a huge difference.
"I'm not trying to uphold their image dude. I'm explaining to you the reality (as I understand it). If it goes against some negative view you had that's on you.
You've been on a crusade for the past 4-6 months on trying to fix people's beliefs about China. Obviously it's important to you and take it very personally. Every negative thing said about China, even if it's true and you can't deny it, you have to downplay it.
I doubt it would matter if I spread misinfo about North Korea or some other country?
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danmanjones (Old Spike)
I was interested why you'd want to firewall Google and FB, so I asked, but now it's about different terms. Let's just drop it then.
You've missed the point. It is the terms that are what I object to. We send billions each year in untaxed advertising revenue to a foreign company & the same thing goes for the big data, which I think is even more valuable for our own high tech research & enterprises.
trying to fix people's beliefs about China
would you prefer this site was an echo chamber?
doubt it would matter if I spread misinfo about North Korea or some other country?
any country on the US State Dept's hitlist is a country I'll counter misinfo aimed to brainwash people. I thought that would be obvious by now after these years of me being called a Putin bootlicker, Iranian shill or whatever. I've posted a bunch of things about North Korea here. It's not my obsession to post China Bad propaganda here, I just counter it. It upsets people & they double down, and on it goes.
How about Bing, can they use that?
Yes, Bing works in China. It's better to use a VPN & use duck or google as a Westerner though because it's not very good.
just like Baidu would prioritize based on their algorithm
Baidu is not the only search engine in China. It's the main one but other significant ones exist, unlike in the West...
Notice Yahoo & Google Maps make a further ~3-4%, leaving 1 American corporation in control of around 94% of what we find online. A corporation with links to its government (see Snowden revelations). All this big data going exclusively to a single foreign entity for free is crazy.
IMO the GFW is China's 2nd most important asset, behind the people. It's allowed their own internet sphere to flourish & some cool things have come out of there. They do not need Google in their country to use the web. Data sovereignty in the information age is something you may not be used to thinking about but it's quite a real thing IMO.
I've seen what plenty of videos / documentaries what the rural side of China
You think rural areas of China that have been highlighted for you (wonder why) are a threat because they're poor & undeveloped? You don't get it. Not even close man. Maybe you got distracted by the word peasant. It just means popular uprising, from the people, not a faction within the power structure.
At the end of the day, if the Chinese are happy being completely blocked off from the internet outside their borders, so what? Most of their history has been this way. It's like another world there & that's fine. Or would you prefer they became like Japan which is really just another Western nation with some differnent traditional culture, most of which was inherited from China?
This is a rhetorical question. They are not happy doing that, they are inquisitive people and want to know what's going on outside their borders & learn from what's on offer. They know far more about us than we do about them, which crushes your entire argument really.
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backdraft (Dixie Normous: Image specialist)
"would you prefer this site was an echo chamber?"
I highly doubt that there would be a lot of China-bashing going around unless there was someone so feverishly defending them. You'd get the occasional "look at these Chinese idiots" videos just like you get NK videos and the like, but nothing like the spam wars thats been going on for a while now.
I've come to this site for the last 15 years, because it's not an echo chamber for the most part. There's always opposing viewpoints. Arguments are good and entertaining, to an extent, but when it starts to take over the whole site, it just brings the overall quality down.
I don't know if you've noticed but you always defending China, actually has the opposite effect. It's like trying to shove a religion to someone who doesn't want it. People actually start to hate it more.
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danmanjones (Old Spike)
Yeah I've noticed.
I don't really care what they hate, like I said I'm not here trying to change anyone's mind, that's a fool's errand. It's already too late for those fools. I'm not even trying to help them. They get defensive which is the opposite of where they need to be in order to learn which is to be humble. Honestly I really dgaf what anyone believes, as hard as that may be to believe.
China bashing was going to kick off on here because of the brainwashing that's been going on for the past few years. Same way Muslims were being targetted before anyone even gave a 2nd thought to China. Can't remember who the targetted group was in the 90s but nobody gave a shit about Muslims back then.
If you look at the posts since No China March ended you'll see who's desparately wanting the war to continue, and yet I'm the only one who ever gets called on it. I find that interesting.
It's pretty easy to ignore, you just clilck on the things you're interested in. You could also try posting other interesting things or try refuting some of the dumb political shit that's posted on here, whoever posts it.
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backdraft (Dixie Normous: Image specialist)
"If you look at the posts since No China March ended you'll see who's desparately wanting the war to continue, and yet I'm the only one who ever gets called on it. I find that interesting."
Yeah, people wanna troll. I guess part of it is because you're an admin and you're the only one doing the defending.
My advice is to ignore it.
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danmanjones (Old Spike)
It's good advice but I can't ignore it.
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danmanjones (Old Spike)
Let us know if any Canadian cities join the 21st Century, sal. Cheers.
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sal9000 (Long Spike)
"us"?
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danmanjones (Old Spike)
Yeah there are other people on this server in case you hadn't noticed. Let us know when Canada joins the 21st Century. Cheers.
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sal9000 (Long Spike)
yea, there are other people here, but i don't think anyone else is asking. or in a different way. i don't think you speak for anyone else.
you know that alot of the new tall shinny buildings in shenzhen and shanghai were designed by american architect firms, engineered by american engineering firms. a handful are done by british, one or two japanese.
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danmanjones (Old Spike)
I wonder when Shanghai will join the 21st Century
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username (Long Spike)
Here comes another episode of Delusion, brought to you by Danmanjones. Check out his other hits "Re-education is Not Brainwashing", "The Health Benefits of Gutter Oil", "An Introduction to Social Credit", and more!
Comments
(Old Spike)
Shenzhen was a fishing village 50 years ago & is already decades ahead of any Canadian city.
(Dixie Normous: Image specialist)
The internet still lagging behind. For some weird reason, Chinese people have to use a VPN to access the WWW
(Old Spike)
Facebook, Twitter & Google are not the WWW.
China is way ahead of us when it comes to using the internet. They pay for everything with their phones & their e-commerce solutions are way ahead. Amazon has been in China for years but hasn't been able to keep up & has ~1% market share. Companies headquarted in Shenzhen kicked Amazon's ass in China by just being better. Another company in Shenzhen is the largest mobile phone network creator in the world & one of the largest handset creators - its technological advancements scare Washington so much they launched a global boycott campaign & had the CFO arrested by their vassal state of Canada.
If you're looking for Western supremacy talking points, you really should leave the internet out of the conversation.
(Dixie Normous: Image specialist)
Ok so we should just ignore China's great firewall? You don't think censoring the internet is a problem?
I work for a company that imports goods from China. A few years ago I suggested to one of our agents a VPN (might have been that he asked it, can't recall). So I gave him a 2 years subscription for a Finnish VPN provider. The guy was super happy and said it really helped out since now he could use Google and other services in his business. He actually was a bit apprehensive at first and said to me he won't use it for anything bad and not to spread propaganda. It made me smirk, but that's the stance of the Chinese government has. Chinese people should see everything that's on the internet.
(Old Spike)
Chinese people can see everything that's on the internet. They just need a VPN for some things. VPNs aren't illegal in China.
What I think about censoring the internet is not black n white. All countries do it to some degree. Eg. kiddie porn, the pirate bay, 4chan, anti-PC or "terrorist" stuff on twitter/facebook. Political leaders from countries Washington hates are suspended from Twitter all the time.
I don't use Weibo because I can't read Chinese. Chinese mostly don't use Twitter because some don't read English but mostly because they use Weibo instead. Baidu works much better in China that Google does for similar reasons to why Amazon failed to gain traction - it understands the market better & is more localised. They don't need Facebook, they have WeChat & it's way better than Facebook.
I'll go even further, I would firewall Google & Facebook out of my country & invest in localised versions if I had the chance to here in NZ. I'm somewhat of a cyber-nationalist but that's a can of worms we can get into if you want to know the reasons behind it.
Do I think China should loosen their firewall?
No probably not at this point. I prefer that it's uncommon for Chinese to mix in cesspools like Twitter & Facebook. At least while the West is pumping out so much anti-China propaganda. It could cause xenophobia to rise in China. It's already becoming embarrassing to go there as a white person thanks to Trump/Pompeo.
Do I think it's up to me to decide what's best for them?
Hell no. It's their country.
(Dixie Normous: Image specialist)
"Chinese people can see everything that's on the internet. They just need a VPN for some things. VPNs aren't illegal in China."
Yes, and why do you think this is so? There's been a massive surge in VPN use in China, so obviously people want to see what's behind the great firewall.
We're not talking about censoring kiddie porn, pirate sites or extremist ideologies. Just basic things like google search which I'm sure a lot of English speaking Chinese people would appreciate. Just like our agent did. Maybe a Chinese person would be interested in searching about "tank man Tiananmen square". I bet you don't get a lot of results on Baidu.
China pumps out propaganda just like the west does. It's up to the people to decide what to believe. Sure it's a clusterfuck here in the "free internet side" too. It's filled with echo chambers, but at least there's multiple echo chambers that counter each other if your willing to look at the bigger picture. With a closed internet, you get only one echo chamber.
Yeah, I'd like to hear why you would want to firewall Google / Facebook off from NZ. I don't see why someone couldn't come up with a local version if that's what you're looking for and why they couldn't exist side by side so people could choose what to use.
(Old Spike)
We're not talking about censoring kiddie porn, pirate sites or extremist ideologies
Yes we are. Facebook was blocked after they refused to allow PRC govt to play a role in censoring extremist content in the wake of the 2009 riots in Urumqi where Uyghurs killed over a hundred people in ethnic violence that was organised on Facebook. Google was blocked following a fallout with the PRC govt over pornographic search results - pornography isn't as legal there as it is here so is treated similar to how we deal with kiddie porn.
Regardless, those are some examples of what we censor because that's our choice to censor that stuff. Just like it's their choice to censor what they do. I don't agree with all of the censorship that goes on on either side but I think it's a good thing that kids can't easily access porn at a young age. The VPN requirement helps in this way.
There's been a massive surge in VPN use in China
I wouldn't put it that way. It's been growing as their internet usage grows & currently around 10% of Chinese netizens sometimes use VPN, mainly for checking out news sites that are blocked or for entertainment AFAIK. Kinda like the way I look at Chinese news/social media sites sometimes & translate them just to look around, it's not really important but I'm curious enough to see another angle. I have to jump through hoops to read that stuff, all they have to do is run a VPN because they're taught English at their school. In fact when you put it all together we're the ones who are ignorant out of their culture & local media, not the other way around.
It's up to the people to decide what to believe
If you understand Chinese history you'll see why they're extra sensitive to dissident groups. Last century alone they had 4 revolutions. It's up to them how they use the internet IMO.
why you would want to firewall Google / Facebook off from NZ
1. Around 90% of online advertising revenue goes straight out the door, tax free to these 2 foreign companies.
2. I would use public funds to build up local versions which would
a. encourage more NZ-flavoured community & culture to flourish
b. provide more jobs in the tech sector for kiwis to improve their skills which would lead to more tech innovation & services (a lucrative field going forward)
c. give NZ bargaining leverage to let Google & Facebook back in on our terms
The terms to let these tech giants back in would be that we take a slice of the advertising revenue and more importantly that we get to capture the big data. The big data is the most valuable part of what's going out the door for free. It's crucial for things such as AI. We are giving this away to foreign private companies (who share it to their govt, who then give us limited access using their own anlyitical tools but only for the spooks to carry out certain missions) & it's a big mistake.
(Dixie Normous: Image specialist)
"Yes we are. Facebook was blocked after they refused to allow PRC govt to play a role in censoring extremist content in the wake of the 2009 riots..."
You are, but I'm not. My point is they censor more than just the above. Censoring facts & history is another thing altogether. It's a way of controlling the people.
"If you understand Chinese history you'll see why they're extra sensitive to dissident groups. Last century alone they had 4 revolutions. It's up to them how they use the internet IMO"
Revolutions happen for a reason, and obviously people are discontent if they do happen.
Yes, it's up to them how to use the internet. Just like North Korea has the right to do as they please. All I'm saying I don't believe that's the way forward. Censorship is always done to cover up some shady shit or to hold on to power.
"Around 90% of online advertising revenue goes straight out the door, tax free to these 2 foreign companies"
And whose fault is that? That's like complaining that another company is taking all of my customers because my business model sucks so I want to ban them from doing business in my area.
"I would use public funds to build up local versions which would
a. encourage more NZ-flavoured community & culture to flourish..."
Sorry but I don't see your point. It seems like your just looking for someone to blame...
You can do all those things with or without Google.
Now I do agree that Google and FB have grown too big and powerful, but that's only because there's no competition. Well, FB does, but Google doesn't. IMO you can't ban / firewall them, the only way you can beat them is to create a better product.
(Old Spike)
the only way you can beat them is to create a better product
Yes & then when it becomes a rival of any kind they will buy it.
Censoring facts & history is another thing altogether. It's a way of controlling the people.
Censoring facts by blocking Facebook? LOL
You seem to be thinking that Google is some kind of keeper of facts. It is just a search engine. It employs filters of which the algorithms are kept as a closely guarded secret. It's in bed with the US government & shows different results depending on the region you're searching from. Most of what you find on Google rwt history is biased in one way or another.
I agree with your premise about censoring information but it's not something unique to China & like I've already said, VPNs are a thing.
I don't think you really understand what it would take to compete with Google's dominance of the internet search space. We can agree to disagree about it since you won't address the core issues advertising revenue & big data being pilfered from our country. You've also ignored the fact that I'm not opposed to them operating here, just on different terms. NZ is a sovereign nation & we should decide what our internet looks like, nobody else. We have no obligation to let any company operate here & if we let them it should be on terms we can all agree on. Some European states are going through this same struggle about taxing the advertising revenue right now. NZ doesn't have the same leverage as large EU states & we'd need to be creative about how we forced them to give us our cut. It's our userbase they're getting for free. Blindly carrying on how things are for some ideological reason to do with censorship is a fool's errand IMO. The good that could come out of us incubating our own tech would far outweigh the negative side of forcing people to use VPN to get onto Google.
Revolutions happen for a reason, and obviously people are discontent if they do happen.
Yeah and it's the problem of the administration to meet the needs of the people. This problem doesn't disappear because Google or Facebook are blocked. The Chinese govt listens to what the people say online & adjust accordingly. They have a special site for people to make complaints & should there be enough people with the same complaint they will respond & do something about it. There is no need for people to organise underground on Facebook and as the riots in 2009 showed, it's dangerous to let this take place. You need to understand that there are 1.4 billion people in China with a long history of civil unrest.
Have you ever bothered to find out what the people of China think about the GFW?
(Dixie Normous: Image specialist)
"Censoring facts by blocking Facebook? LOL"
As I said they censor a lot more than facebook. Basically they want to ban most things that they can't control. One might wonder why the Chinese government is so worried about civil unrest? Does China have a disproportionate number of hooligans?
"You seem to be thinking that Google is some kind of keeper of facts. It is just a search engine."
Yes, exactly it's just a search engine. Not the gatekeeper of truth. So why block it?
"I don't think you really understand what it would take to compete with Google's dominance of the internet search space."
Oh I do. But that doesn't mean it can't be done. The thing is, nobody's even trying.
"You've also ignored the fact that I'm not opposed to them operating here, just on different terms."
In case you forgot, here's what you said:
'll go even further, I would firewall Google & Facebook out of my country & invest in localised versions if I had the chance to here in NZ."
"NZ is a sovereign nation & we should decide what our internet looks like, nobody else"
Sure, you can create your own little corner of the internet that's relevant to your country. The problem is that the web is worldwide, that is unless you make your China-style firewall.
"The Chinese govt listens to what the people say online & adjust accordingly."
LOL I'm starting to think you really are Chinese. Why would a New Zealander be so passionate about upholding China's image?
(Old Spike)
One might wonder why the Chinese government is so worried about civil unrest? Does China have a disproportionate number of hooligans?
They have a long history of peasent uprisings, thousands of attempts & a bunch of successful ones. They also have 1.4 billion people to administer with a diverse population. You need to understand that it's not like our countries which, assuming you're in Canada/US/Aus, were templated from relatively stable Western civilisation with a (short) history of relatively open access to information.
Also, just a century ago the vast majority were illiterate. It wasn't until the CCP took power in 1949 that mass education even started & it took about 30 years to get 75% literacy. They were also late getting onto the internet, people didn't have PCs en masse until the 2000s & cellphones didn't take off until around 2010.
It's a different society man, it has different problems to ours. They will transition to more open access to information out of the West but there are pressures that you can't just discount for your own personal ideological reasons. China doesn't need to copy how the West runs things. They can have their own search engine, their own version of Facebook etc & get along just fine. In the case of Facebook they've built something far superior in WeChat. Facebook is now trying to copy WeChat in some ways - LibreCoin was a rip off of the WeChat wallet. It failed though because nobody trusts Facebook to own a currency.
it's just a search engine. Not the gatekeeper of truth. So why block it?
I disagree. Google's search algorithm makes it a gatekeeper. Who decides what results come up when I search for something on there? The News search results are a blatant example of gatekeeping. Ever wondered why no articles come up on there from Chinese news sources when you search for something happening in China?
In case you forgot, here's what you said:
Maybe you forgot I also said they can operate here but on our terms. Firewalling them out is just a way to force them to comply with how I would like them to operate. This is exactly what China did & they've benefited from the result in a number of ways, even though they still haven't come to terms both sides agreed on.
Sure, you can create your own little corner of the internet that's relevant to your country. The problem is that the web is worldwide, that is unless you make your China-style firewall.
You're just being condescending & failing to consider what could be possible if we built our own search engine with public backing, or community site like Facebook. For a start the revenue & big data would come back into our country. Culturally it would enhance our community & national identity. It would take time to get something as efficient as Google for search results but these are just results of things that exist on the web. You're conflating blocking Google with blocking every site on the internet. That's naive.
LOL I'm starting to think you really are Chinese. Why would a New Zealander be so passionate about upholding China's image?
I'm not trying to uphold their image dude. I'm explaining to you the reality (as I understand it). If it goes against some negative view you had that's on you.
(Dixie Normous: Image specialist)
"They have a long history of peasent uprisings, thousands of attempts & a bunch of successful ones....It's a different society man, it has different problems to ours...."
Yes, I've seen what plenty of videos / documentaries what the rural side of China looks like, what the conditions are and why there might be a lot of resistance to the way things are handled by the government. Maybe there's western spin on it, but if even 50% of it's true it's no wonder they like to riot given the chance.
"Google's search algorithm makes it a gatekeeper. Who decides what results come up when I search for something on there?"
Yes just like Baidu would prioritize based on their algorithm. They are the gatekeepers of truth for China. What do you think, could Chinese people get a more balanced view if they could use both Baidu and Google? How about Bing, can they use that? Why force people to use a VPN to get more info?
"Maybe you forgot I also said they can operate here but on our terms."
Dan:
I'll go even further, I would firewall Google & Facebook out of my country & invest in localised versions if I had the chance to here in NZ.
Me:
Yeah, I'd like to hear why you would want to firewall Google / Facebook off from NZ.
I was interested why you'd want to firewall Google and FB, so I asked, but now it's about different terms. Let's just drop it then.
"You're just being condescending & failing to consider what could be possible if we built our own search engine with public backing, or community site like Facebook"
No, I'm not just convinced it would make a huge difference.
"I'm not trying to uphold their image dude. I'm explaining to you the reality (as I understand it). If it goes against some negative view you had that's on you.
You've been on a crusade for the past 4-6 months on trying to fix people's beliefs about China. Obviously it's important to you and take it very personally. Every negative thing said about China, even if it's true and you can't deny it, you have to downplay it.
I doubt it would matter if I spread misinfo about North Korea or some other country?
(Old Spike)
I was interested why you'd want to firewall Google and FB, so I asked, but now it's about different terms. Let's just drop it then.
You've missed the point. It is the terms that are what I object to. We send billions each year in untaxed advertising revenue to a foreign company & the same thing goes for the big data, which I think is even more valuable for our own high tech research & enterprises.
trying to fix people's beliefs about China
would you prefer this site was an echo chamber?
doubt it would matter if I spread misinfo about North Korea or some other country?
any country on the US State Dept's hitlist is a country I'll counter misinfo aimed to brainwash people. I thought that would be obvious by now after these years of me being called a Putin bootlicker, Iranian shill or whatever. I've posted a bunch of things about North Korea here. It's not my obsession to post China Bad propaganda here, I just counter it. It upsets people & they double down, and on it goes.
How about Bing, can they use that?
Yes, Bing works in China. It's better to use a VPN & use duck or google as a Westerner though because it's not very good.
just like Baidu would prioritize based on their algorithm
Baidu is not the only search engine in China. It's the main one but other significant ones exist, unlike in the West...
Notice Yahoo & Google Maps make a further ~3-4%, leaving 1 American corporation in control of around 94% of what we find online. A corporation with links to its government (see Snowden revelations). All this big data going exclusively to a single foreign entity for free is crazy.
IMO the GFW is China's 2nd most important asset, behind the people. It's allowed their own internet sphere to flourish & some cool things have come out of there. They do not need Google in their country to use the web. Data sovereignty in the information age is something you may not be used to thinking about but it's quite a real thing IMO.
I've seen what plenty of videos / documentaries what the rural side of China
You think rural areas of China that have been highlighted for you (wonder why) are a threat because they're poor & undeveloped? You don't get it. Not even close man. Maybe you got distracted by the word peasant. It just means popular uprising, from the people, not a faction within the power structure.
At the end of the day, if the Chinese are happy being completely blocked off from the internet outside their borders, so what? Most of their history has been this way. It's like another world there & that's fine. Or would you prefer they became like Japan which is really just another Western nation with some differnent traditional culture, most of which was inherited from China?
This is a rhetorical question. They are not happy doing that, they are inquisitive people and want to know what's going on outside their borders & learn from what's on offer. They know far more about us than we do about them, which crushes your entire argument really.
(Dixie Normous: Image specialist)
"would you prefer this site was an echo chamber?"
I highly doubt that there would be a lot of China-bashing going around unless there was someone so feverishly defending them. You'd get the occasional "look at these Chinese idiots" videos just like you get NK videos and the like, but nothing like the spam wars thats been going on for a while now.
I've come to this site for the last 15 years, because it's not an echo chamber for the most part. There's always opposing viewpoints. Arguments are good and entertaining, to an extent, but when it starts to take over the whole site, it just brings the overall quality down.
I don't know if you've noticed but you always defending China, actually has the opposite effect. It's like trying to shove a religion to someone who doesn't want it. People actually start to hate it more.
(Old Spike)
Yeah I've noticed.
I don't really care what they hate, like I said I'm not here trying to change anyone's mind, that's a fool's errand. It's already too late for those fools. I'm not even trying to help them. They get defensive which is the opposite of where they need to be in order to learn which is to be humble. Honestly I really dgaf what anyone believes, as hard as that may be to believe.
China bashing was going to kick off on here because of the brainwashing that's been going on for the past few years. Same way Muslims were being targetted before anyone even gave a 2nd thought to China. Can't remember who the targetted group was in the 90s but nobody gave a shit about Muslims back then.
If you look at the posts since No China March ended you'll see who's desparately wanting the war to continue, and yet I'm the only one who ever gets called on it. I find that interesting.
It's pretty easy to ignore, you just clilck on the things you're interested in. You could also try posting other interesting things or try refuting some of the dumb political shit that's posted on here, whoever posts it.
(Dixie Normous: Image specialist)
"If you look at the posts since No China March ended you'll see who's desparately wanting the war to continue, and yet I'm the only one who ever gets called on it. I find that interesting."
Yeah, people wanna troll. I guess part of it is because you're an admin and you're the only one doing the defending.
My advice is to ignore it.
(Old Spike)
It's good advice but I can't ignore it.
(Old Spike)
Let us know if any Canadian cities join the 21st Century, sal. Cheers.
(Long Spike)
"us"?
(Old Spike)
Yeah there are other people on this server in case you hadn't noticed. Let us know when Canada joins the 21st Century. Cheers.
(Long Spike)
yea, there are other people here, but i don't think anyone else is asking. or in a different way. i don't think you speak for anyone else.
you know that alot of the new tall shinny buildings in shenzhen and shanghai were designed by american architect firms, engineered by american engineering firms. a handful are done by british, one or two japanese.
(Old Spike)
I wonder when Shanghai will join the 21st Century
(Long Spike)
Here comes another episode of Delusion, brought to you by Danmanjones. Check out his other hits "Re-education is Not Brainwashing", "The Health Benefits of Gutter Oil", "An Introduction to Social Credit", and more!
(Old Spike)
another intelligent comment from username
(Long Spike)
glad you noticed