Possibly. Why, you don't think we have racists in Montreal? No suspects have been apprehended and police are keeping their options open; not considering the incident as racially motivated just yet.
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skeptoid (Old Spike)
Dr. Fauci said we need to stomp those wet markets stat - that's racist! At least give me culturally insensitive.
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danmanjones (Old Spike)
He wasn't calling for any change in China, he was talking about a global ban on markets that sell wildlife. They were closed in January in China & outlawed there in February. It's not as easy as just writing a law though, blackmarkets can spring up if you don't do things properly. They're all over the world, especailly in SEAsia & Africa.
"those wet markets" is basically a meme at this point. If you get your info from people like Bill Maher or Tim Pool it's no wonder you don't know what's going on. They're selling you wolf tickets dude.
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skeptoid (Old Spike)
My information about China's wet markets comes mainly from Watching a two-hour conversation between Joe Rogan and Dr. Michael Osterholm.
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danmanjones (Old Spike)
lol
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skeptoid (Old Spike)
Michael T. Osterholm is an American infectious disease epidemiologist, regents professor, and director of the Center for Infectious Disease Research and Policy at the University of Minnesota.
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danmanjones (Old Spike)
I watched that podcast, he was mostly telling people how scary the pandemic is. He also said face masks are useless (wrong) & he was promoting his book about the threat of pandemics. I don't remember him even mentioning the markets in China & am pretty sure he didn't say anything about what's going on with them since January.
You've made 2 wrong assumptions here so you either didn't listen, his information wasn't accurate or he didn't actually give any details about the status of the markets in China.
Joe Rogan: (01:01:36)
SARS and MERS, a Harbinger of Things to Come.”
Michael Osterholm: (01:01:39)
Get the quote underneath it.
Joe Rogan: (01:01:39)
I need glasses. These make me look smarter. Rudyard Kipling, “And the dawn comes up like thunder, water, China cross the bay.” China.
Michael Osterholm: (01:02:10)
Because they have this incredibly large population, two billion. They’ve got this food supply that is largely wildlife that comes into these markets, where there’s incredible contact between people and these animals. The crowded nature of that society … I mean, I think one of the things that surprises people when they go to China, 15 million population cities are common over there.
I mean, we think of the United States, we think of LA and New York, and that’s big. Over there, in Wuhan, a city of 15 million, the entire Metropolitan area is 60 million, and so you have people crowded so closely together that if you add in the bugs coming from these animals, and then the potential for this kind of contact where it spreads quickly, China’s been a bacterial and viral soup festival for a long time. That’s, again, why we have to protect ourselves here, because a bug anywhere in the world today can be a bug everywhere tomorrow.
Joe Rogan: (01:03:11)
Particularly when you’re dealing with a massive number like these kind of cities.
Joe Rogan: (01:03:16)
They call them wet markets. Is that what they call them?
Michael Osterholm: (01:03:18)
Yep. Wet markets, yep.
Joe Rogan: (01:03:19)
That’s what it is, a lot of it is wildlife?
Michael Osterholm: (01:03:21)
Oh, it’s incredible. I’ve hunted, my life, I’ve always, I love to fly fish. I love the outdoors. I could never have imagined the animals. I’ve spent time in these markets. I remember one day, spending a day in the Bangkok, Thailand market, and it was about a mile by a mile and a half big, in these tight aisles. Every animal imaginable to humans, and I swear to god, there were some out of the movies, I think, that were in there, and they’re all just right on top of each other.
Michael Osterholm: (01:03:51)
I actually have a picture that I show in some of my lectures. There was a situation where there were all these chickens in a cage. I don’t know, 15 or 20 of them in a big wire cage, and it sat on top of a …
Michael Osterholm: (01:04:03)
15 or 20 of them, okay? And a big wire cage. And it sat on top of a wire cage full of ferrets. And ferrets are actually an animal model from flu standpoint that they do really well and getting infected with flu viruses. If you wanted to create the perfect experiment that no university, research group would let you do is you’d put birds and ferrets like that together. And that is just common. That’s just common. That’s common.
Joe Rogan: (01:04:23)
And so birds and ferrets together, the something that’s infecting the birds could jump to the ferrets or vice versa?
Michael Osterholm: (01:04:29)
The ferrets could breathe it out and we can get infected.
Michael Osterholm: (01:04:31)
And so these markets, and I don’t know what’s going to happen here, but for the first time we really saw the Chinese after this outbreak in Wuhan really start to put down some markers on what they’re going to do to supervise these markets. I mean, they still have to eat, but I think this is a dangerous practice where we see it, but you know, it happens. Look at Africa with Ebola, right? You know, bushmeat is still very important and there’s so much of the world that that’s their primary foods.
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skeptoid (Old Spike)
That is a really cool website - bookmarked.
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danmanjones (Old Spike)
we really saw the Chinese after this outbreak in Wuhan really start to put down some markers on what they’re going to do to supervise these markets
In reality they temp banned all wildlife sales on Jan 22 & in Feb outlawed them completely. The interview was in March. I think the problem lies more with Osterholm than with skeptoid. What he said was vague & in that context it was borderline misleading.
This bit's funny
they have this incredibly large population, two billion. They’ve got this food supply that is largely wildlife that comes into these markets
The guy's a bit of a crackpot really. Telling millions of Rogan fans that masks are ineffective... I wonder how many people heard that & acted on it.
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Bobbob (Site Administrator)
I just listened to the podcast... Ugh. This is going to be a long ride. Everyone try and stay as healthy as possible.
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danmanjones (Old Spike)
Selling wildlife for consumption has been outlawed in China, even though the origin of the virus getting into humans is yet unknown. The meme about eating bats being related to the outbreak is unscientific & not even common in Hubei.
Do you think they'll stop eating bats in Florida any time soon?
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daftcunt (Old Spike)
It is simple. People coming from china (literally "coming from"; NOT because they are chinese) are not allowed in other countries unless these markets are permanently closed.
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danmanjones (Old Spike)
that's the most ignorant thing I've seen you say, it's so flawed I won't even argue.
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daftcunt (Old Spike)
Well probably you have a better solution? I forgot to add the premis "Should these markets be identified as the actual cause of the spread."
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lawngnome (Long Spike)
Danman already "debunked" the market as the cause, "In another post" . Yaaaaaawnnnn
The wildlife and bushmeat needs to eradicated from these markets, not fresh produce though.
(To say it's only fresh produce sold at these markets is straight lying, Danman)
I'm surprised they are saying that eating of cats and dogs are to banned, it's the vermin and bushmeat that need to go.
(we were starting to get used to them eating pets and isn't the main issue for causing disease. It's the rats, bats, snakes, pangolin, salomander, frogs, monkeys, whatever)
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danmanjones (Old Spike)
Yeah that would be a good start.
The markets selling wildlife in China were shutdown in January & in February the laws against wildlife trade & consumption were enforced with stronger punishments in China & government programs to handle the job losses etc are now in place. That the practice was never unique to that country is another thing to consider. Or that H1N1 - the last major pandemic - was started on pig farms in North America. Or that "not allowed in other countries", while simple, is ridiculous & impossible to enforce. The list goes on.
It's obvious wildlife trade needs more regulation, regardless of whether this was the cause of the virus. This is already happening across Asia. This is not "the solution" but it's just common sense. There is no solution to zoonotic disease other than removing any interaction between animals & humans which is impossible at this point & would be kinda sucky if it ever happened.
The most solid prevention measures would probably be a mix of regulation of animal handling & boosting our disease prevention, detection & control mechanisms. We could just all point at China & tell them to fix the problem (assuming they even caused it & weren't just the first to detect it) & do nothing else & next time a pandemic hits we'll be in a similar boat.
Comments
(Old Spike)
Why is Dr. Fauci racist against the Chinese?
(Old Spike)
no. Were the Canadians featured in this article being racist?
https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/montreal/koreans-montreal-safety-warning-1.5501963
(Site Administrator)
Possibly. Why, you don't think we have racists in Montreal? No suspects have been apprehended and police are keeping their options open; not considering the incident as racially motivated just yet.
(Old Spike)
Dr. Fauci said we need to stomp those wet markets stat - that's racist! At least give me culturally insensitive.
(Old Spike)
He wasn't calling for any change in China, he was talking about a global ban on markets that sell wildlife. They were closed in January in China & outlawed there in February. It's not as easy as just writing a law though, blackmarkets can spring up if you don't do things properly. They're all over the world, especailly in SEAsia & Africa.
"those wet markets" is basically a meme at this point. If you get your info from people like Bill Maher or Tim Pool it's no wonder you don't know what's going on. They're selling you wolf tickets dude.
(Old Spike)
My information about China's wet markets comes mainly from Watching a two-hour conversation between Joe Rogan and Dr. Michael Osterholm.
(Old Spike)
lol
(Old Spike)
Michael T. Osterholm is an American infectious disease epidemiologist, regents professor, and director of the Center for Infectious Disease Research and Policy at the University of Minnesota.
(Old Spike)
I watched that podcast, he was mostly telling people how scary the pandemic is. He also said face masks are useless (wrong) & he was promoting his book about the threat of pandemics. I don't remember him even mentioning the markets in China & am pretty sure he didn't say anything about what's going on with them since January.
You've made 2 wrong assumptions here so you either didn't listen, his information wasn't accurate or he didn't actually give any details about the status of the markets in China.
(Long Spike)
Michael Osterholm: (01:01:35)
Okay. Read the-
Joe Rogan: (01:01:36)
SARS and MERS, a Harbinger of Things to Come.”
Michael Osterholm: (01:01:39)
Get the quote underneath it.
Joe Rogan: (01:01:39)
I need glasses. These make me look smarter. Rudyard Kipling, “And the dawn comes up like thunder, water, China cross the bay.” China.
Michael Osterholm: (01:02:00)
China. We said-
Joe Rogan: (01:02:02)
Did you put that in there because you really thought that a lot of this stuff was going to come out of China?
Michael Osterholm: (01:02:06)
Exactly.
Joe Rogan: (01:02:06)
Or because it’s a great quote?
Michael Osterholm: (01:02:07)
No. This is exactly what we’re talking about.
Joe Rogan: (01:02:09)
Why China?
Michael Osterholm: (01:02:10)
Because they have this incredibly large population, two billion. They’ve got this food supply that is largely wildlife that comes into these markets, where there’s incredible contact between people and these animals. The crowded nature of that society … I mean, I think one of the things that surprises people when they go to China, 15 million population cities are common over there.
Michael Osterholm: (01:02:35)
I mean, we think of the United States, we think of LA and New York, and that’s big. Over there, in Wuhan, a city of 15 million, the entire Metropolitan area is 60 million, and so you have people crowded so closely together that if you add in the bugs coming from these animals, and then the potential for this kind of contact where it spreads quickly, China’s been a bacterial and viral soup festival for a long time. That’s, again, why we have to protect ourselves here, because a bug anywhere in the world today can be a bug everywhere tomorrow.
Joe Rogan: (01:03:11)
Particularly when you’re dealing with a massive number like these kind of cities.
Michael Osterholm: (01:03:15)
Yeah.
Joe Rogan: (01:03:16)
They call them wet markets. Is that what they call them?
Michael Osterholm: (01:03:18)
Yep. Wet markets, yep.
Joe Rogan: (01:03:19)
That’s what it is, a lot of it is wildlife?
Michael Osterholm: (01:03:21)
Oh, it’s incredible. I’ve hunted, my life, I’ve always, I love to fly fish. I love the outdoors. I could never have imagined the animals. I’ve spent time in these markets. I remember one day, spending a day in the Bangkok, Thailand market, and it was about a mile by a mile and a half big, in these tight aisles. Every animal imaginable to humans, and I swear to god, there were some out of the movies, I think, that were in there, and they’re all just right on top of each other.
Michael Osterholm: (01:03:51)
I actually have a picture that I show in some of my lectures. There was a situation where there were all these chickens in a cage. I don’t know, 15 or 20 of them in a big wire cage, and it sat on top of a …
Michael Osterholm: (01:04:03)
15 or 20 of them, okay? And a big wire cage. And it sat on top of a wire cage full of ferrets. And ferrets are actually an animal model from flu standpoint that they do really well and getting infected with flu viruses. If you wanted to create the perfect experiment that no university, research group would let you do is you’d put birds and ferrets like that together. And that is just common. That’s just common. That’s common.
Joe Rogan: (01:04:23)
And so birds and ferrets together, the something that’s infecting the birds could jump to the ferrets or vice versa?
Michael Osterholm: (01:04:29)
The ferrets could breathe it out and we can get infected.
Joe Rogan: (01:04:31)
Oh Christ.
Michael Osterholm: (01:04:31)
And so these markets, and I don’t know what’s going to happen here, but for the first time we really saw the Chinese after this outbreak in Wuhan really start to put down some markers on what they’re going to do to supervise these markets. I mean, they still have to eat, but I think this is a dangerous practice where we see it, but you know, it happens. Look at Africa with Ebola, right? You know, bushmeat is still very important and there’s so much of the world that that’s their primary foods.
(Old Spike)
That is a really cool website - bookmarked.
(Old Spike)
we really saw the Chinese after this outbreak in Wuhan really start to put down some markers on what they’re going to do to supervise these markets
In reality they temp banned all wildlife sales on Jan 22 & in Feb outlawed them completely. The interview was in March. I think the problem lies more with Osterholm than with skeptoid. What he said was vague & in that context it was borderline misleading.
This bit's funny
they have this incredibly large population, two billion. They’ve got this food supply that is largely wildlife that comes into these markets
The guy's a bit of a crackpot really. Telling millions of Rogan fans that masks are ineffective... I wonder how many people heard that & acted on it.
(Site Administrator)
I just listened to the podcast... Ugh. This is going to be a long ride. Everyone try and stay as healthy as possible.
(Old Spike)
Selling wildlife for consumption has been outlawed in China, even though the origin of the virus getting into humans is yet unknown. The meme about eating bats being related to the outbreak is unscientific & not even common in Hubei.
Do you think they'll stop eating bats in Florida any time soon?
(Old Spike)
It is simple. People coming from china (literally "coming from"; NOT because they are chinese) are not allowed in other countries unless these markets are permanently closed.
(Old Spike)
that's the most ignorant thing I've seen you say, it's so flawed I won't even argue.
(Old Spike)
Well probably you have a better solution? I forgot to add the premis "Should these markets be identified as the actual cause of the spread."
(Long Spike)
Danman already "debunked" the market as the cause, "In another post" . Yaaaaaawnnnn
The wildlife and bushmeat needs to eradicated from these markets, not fresh produce though.
(To say it's only fresh produce sold at these markets is straight lying, Danman)
I'm surprised they are saying that eating of cats and dogs are to banned, it's the vermin and bushmeat that need to go.
(we were starting to get used to them eating pets and isn't the main issue for causing disease. It's the rats, bats, snakes, pangolin, salomander, frogs, monkeys, whatever)
(Old Spike)
Yeah that would be a good start.
The markets selling wildlife in China were shutdown in January & in February the laws against wildlife trade & consumption were enforced with stronger punishments in China & government programs to handle the job losses etc are now in place. That the practice was never unique to that country is another thing to consider. Or that H1N1 - the last major pandemic - was started on pig farms in North America. Or that "not allowed in other countries", while simple, is ridiculous & impossible to enforce. The list goes on.
It's obvious wildlife trade needs more regulation, regardless of whether this was the cause of the virus. This is already happening across Asia. This is not "the solution" but it's just common sense. There is no solution to zoonotic disease other than removing any interaction between animals & humans which is impossible at this point & would be kinda sucky if it ever happened.
The most solid prevention measures would probably be a mix of regulation of animal handling & boosting our disease prevention, detection & control mechanisms. We could just all point at China & tell them to fix the problem (assuming they even caused it & weren't just the first to detect it) & do nothing else & next time a pandemic hits we'll be in a similar boat.