Having any openly Nazi members of your miltiary & government is a problem but yes there are lots.
3,000ish members of Azov alone & they're said to practically run the National Guard. There's a bunch of other groups with various levels of military/police/political power & Nazi leanings, some openly Nazi like C14 & some who just like doing Nazi style atrocities like Right Sector or Aidar Battalion.
The extremist/Nazi groups in Ukraine are SNA, Right Sector/White Hammer, Svoboda, UNA-UNSO, C14, Bratstvo, Aidar battalion, Sich battalion, Azov & St Marys battalions & Ukrainian National Corps.
The video above is refuted with this one:
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sato (Old Spike)
the group was nazi-leaning when formed, later absorbed a lot of new members that had absolutely no nazi leanings - so much so that the nazi-leaning leadership all left, and the group no longer has any nazi leanings. but yeah the group has the same name so they must still be nazis, nice logic. i guess the american president must be a nazi too because he supports ford and ford supported hitler?
doesn't matter that the membership is different now, all that matters is what they used to stand for 8 years ago, change is impossible.
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danman (Site Administrator)
you got those talking point from the propaganda video you posted & they're debunked in the refuting video I posted - the one you replied to. You're burying your head in the sand, obviously.
I'll just reply to one thing you've mentioned..
"the nazi-leaning leadership all left"
Pictured above is Andriy Biletsky the co-founder & current leader of Azov
He's also the leader of National Corps, a nao-Nazi political party in Ukraine.
It wasn't one of the 11 parties that were banned a few days ago but it is neo-Nazi in orientation.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Corps
Strange that a leader of a neo-Nazi political party is running a militant group that "no longer has any nazi leanings" don't you think?
So he's a "white nationalist far-right politician" who runs a paramilitary-cum-national guard regiment with 2 Nazi symbols in their flag & whose Nazi ideology is widely reported & undeniable, as well as running a neo-Nazi political party......... but "the group no longer has any nazi leanings", correct?
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backdraft (Dixie Normous: Image specialist)
Nazi numbers are only going to go up. Young lads seeing their country blown to pieces will stir up a lot of hate.
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danman (Site Administrator)
they've been going up since 2014
there's been a civil war going on there & these Ukrainian far right extremist & Nazis were sent in to take control of cities in Donbass incl Mariupol & Kharkiv to suppress ethnic Russian seperatists & spearhead the military efforts.
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backdraft (Dixie Normous: Image specialist)
Yeah I mean after the invasion there might be a shit load more. They hate the Russian and it ain't helping when you bomb the rest of the country.
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danman (Site Administrator)
it depends on what happens if/when Kyiv capitulates.
there could be a demand to deradicalize the population or whatever.
the 'denazification' process is unclear & just destroying the bulk of the ones in & around Donbass is what's been happening but Lavrov has said at least once what Russia expects is a process such as what took place in post-wwii Germany. It's still too early to see whether such a demand can be enforced or where it stacks up on Russia's priorities. Hopefully the EU's involved in the process later on, they kinda have to be for the neutrality arrangement.
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backdraft (Dixie Normous: Image specialist)
Pretty hard to compare them to WWII nazis -> Dominating europe and killing millions of jews.
But yeah thats what people associate the "nazi" word with. Better description would be a group of "racists militants who hate Russians".
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theblackswordsman (Old Spike)
Even though that's really not any better and hardly different at it's root. What do you think would happen if that ideology spread over much of the country and was siezed by a psychopathic demagogue with imperialist ambitions?
This ideology spreads like wild fire because it promises strength and unity through fear and corruption of law.
Very similiar to what the west has been doing lately though with more subtlty.
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backdraft (Dixie Normous: Image specialist)
I think the majority of the world has learned from WWII nazis and what it can lead to. Of course not all have, but most. It's really hard to make literal nazis go mainstream these days.
Most Ideologies rely on promises of strength and unity, especially when threatened by a common enemy. That's how they are usually formed, sometimes the enemy is made up, sometimes it's real. When you see building toppling around you, it's not that hard to see if it's real.
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theblackswordsman (Old Spike)
Strength and unity is good. Under the banner of individual rights and people choosing for themselves.
The Ukrainian/western regime is using fear and corruption of law. That's the difference.
Same with the critical race theory, LGBT camapign of social reform, pedophelia pandering etc. All corruption of law to manufacture false unity through fear of persecution if you won't tolerate it or even activiely support it.
This hate didn't start with Putin, This was a western manufactured problem starting years ago.
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danman (Site Administrator)
That describes a lot of Ukrainians but there are Nazis amongst them & some of the groups do have literal Nazi ideology. Within these groups there's probably a lot of those types you mentioned, as was the case in the original Nazi party, they didn't all believe every aspect of the mysticism or whatever. You'd imagine the vast majority agreed with the Nazi take on their race being superior to Jews, Roma & Slavs.
Conquering Europe isn't required to be a Nazi but that is one of the main goals of Azov types. I've heard many say it. They're supposedly on a mission to lead the white race in a cleansing of Europe against the Jewish-led undermensch, something pretty close to this. I think their leader said it a while back & it stuck. With some others it's simply ethnic hatred towards Russians - Russian Ukrainians & Russian Russians, they often call them Moscovites, or 'orcs' & spew racial superiority/hate shit, some of which I've shown on here. It's pretty ignorant stuff because they're Slavic brothers ... don't ask me how that works.
The reason that they are literal Nazis is because they trace this form of nationalist ideology back to the Nazi collaborators from WWII days when Ukrainians sided with Nazi Germany & formed Ukrainian units of the SS & whatnot. It has quite a bit to do with Stepan Bandera who led the OUN-B - a paramilitary group who the SS used to massacre tens of thousands of Poles & Jews.
You've likely seen OUN-B leader Stepan Bandera's headshot before
Since the coup in 2014 things have really amped up, they named a prominent Kyiv street after him & put up a statue of him
This is a guy who was too extreme for the Nazi Party, the patriarch of a relatively popular brand of suicidal nationalism in Ukraine. The Russians call the followers of this ideology "Banderites" & they easily tick enough boxes to label them as Nazis IMO. Not neo-Nazis, they're slightly different. These guys (the more devoted ones ig) literally wanna do what the Nazis did, use the 1940s Nazi or Nazi collaborator colours & symbology in their logos, fw Nazi memorabilia & all that other shit. You get the idea.
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backdraft (Dixie Normous: Image specialist)
" It's pretty ignorant stuff because they're Slavic brothers ... don't ask me how that works."
Thats pretty rich seeing what russia is doing now. Bombing their Slavic brother. Odd way of showing brotherly love.
As I've said many times before, the russia hate doesn't come from thin air. Theres always cause & effect.
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danman (Site Administrator)
Russia didn't start this fight but they're gonna end it. That's how I see it.
I say it's weird that there's some freaky racial component. It actually has a history to it which has come down thru the centuries & was popularized by a 19th C German scholar who wrote a book about Russians being somehow Asiatic, that's the justification the Nazis used to treat Slavs as undermensch.
The extra weird thing about Ukrainians saying that about 'Moscovites' is it's based on a pretty vague concept of the 150 years of Mongolian rule in & around Russia but the Mongols were more settled in modern day Ukraine than they were further East towards Moscow so people in Ukraine mixed with them more if anything lol.
below is a video from a friend of mine, It has some good background of what Russophobic Europeans think of Russians with sources in the links & just summarizes it in the vid. I like the message of Asians embracing Russians as brothers. Geopolitically & culturally. Why not. I do think living in the vicinity of Mongolians has contributed to Russia's culture to a degree but this is more of a hunch. Mongolians were tough cookies & kept the Chinese on their toes for quite a while. China was under Mongolian rule for almost a century & Russia for 150 years, so they have that in common. It was about 800 years ago so I dunno if it still counts.
There's also chatter about the actual elite in Moscow - the siloviki - being impressed with China's system of governance (the results are hard to ignore) & perhaps wanting to emulate parts of it in Russia. Again, why not. It would be a more socially liberal form of China's meritocratic style of authoritarian rule than China I'd say, might be a good fit & help Russia advance.
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theblackswordsman (Old Spike)
"the group was nazi-leaning when formed, later absorbed a lot of new members that had absolutely no nazi leanings - so much so that the nazi-leaning leadership all left, and the group no longer has any nazi leanings."
Good apples do not turn bad apples good again. The bad apples have to be removed in these cases by force before an overwhelming force for good can begin a humane denazification process.
It takes years and immense resources and attention to accomplish.
When good people join a a pro nazi group, let's say out of ignorance to the groups aims. If you try to change them when you find out what they are doing they turn rabid and will tear you to pieces as soon as they believe you will not convert or leave.
Comments
(Site Administrator)
Having any openly Nazi members of your miltiary & government is a problem but yes there are lots.
3,000ish members of Azov alone & they're said to practically run the National Guard. There's a bunch of other groups with various levels of military/police/political power & Nazi leanings, some openly Nazi like C14 & some who just like doing Nazi style atrocities like Right Sector or Aidar Battalion.
The extremist/Nazi groups in Ukraine are SNA, Right Sector/White Hammer, Svoboda, UNA-UNSO, C14, Bratstvo, Aidar battalion, Sich battalion, Azov & St Marys battalions & Ukrainian National Corps.
The video above is refuted with this one:
(Old Spike)
the group was nazi-leaning when formed, later absorbed a lot of new members that had absolutely no nazi leanings - so much so that the nazi-leaning leadership all left, and the group no longer has any nazi leanings. but yeah the group has the same name so they must still be nazis, nice logic. i guess the american president must be a nazi too because he supports ford and ford supported hitler?
doesn't matter that the membership is different now, all that matters is what they used to stand for 8 years ago, change is impossible.
(Site Administrator)
you got those talking point from the propaganda video you posted & they're debunked in the refuting video I posted - the one you replied to. You're burying your head in the sand, obviously.
I'll just reply to one thing you've mentioned..
"the nazi-leaning leadership all left"
Pictured above is Andriy Biletsky the co-founder & current leader of Azov
He's also the leader of National Corps, a nao-Nazi political party in Ukraine.
It wasn't one of the 11 parties that were banned a few days ago but it is neo-Nazi in orientation.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Corps
Strange that a leader of a neo-Nazi political party is running a militant group that "no longer has any nazi leanings" don't you think?
So he's a "white nationalist far-right politician" who runs a paramilitary-cum-national guard regiment with 2 Nazi symbols in their flag & whose Nazi ideology is widely reported & undeniable, as well as running a neo-Nazi political party......... but "the group no longer has any nazi leanings", correct?
(Dixie Normous: Image specialist)
Nazi numbers are only going to go up. Young lads seeing their country blown to pieces will stir up a lot of hate.
(Site Administrator)
they've been going up since 2014
there's been a civil war going on there & these Ukrainian far right extremist & Nazis were sent in to take control of cities in Donbass incl Mariupol & Kharkiv to suppress ethnic Russian seperatists & spearhead the military efforts.
(Dixie Normous: Image specialist)
Yeah I mean after the invasion there might be a shit load more. They hate the Russian and it ain't helping when you bomb the rest of the country.
(Site Administrator)
it depends on what happens if/when Kyiv capitulates.
there could be a demand to deradicalize the population or whatever.
the 'denazification' process is unclear & just destroying the bulk of the ones in & around Donbass is what's been happening but Lavrov has said at least once what Russia expects is a process such as what took place in post-wwii Germany. It's still too early to see whether such a demand can be enforced or where it stacks up on Russia's priorities. Hopefully the EU's involved in the process later on, they kinda have to be for the neutrality arrangement.
(Dixie Normous: Image specialist)
Pretty hard to compare them to WWII nazis -> Dominating europe and killing millions of jews.
But yeah thats what people associate the "nazi" word with. Better description would be a group of "racists militants who hate Russians".
(Old Spike)
Even though that's really not any better and hardly different at it's root. What do you think would happen if that ideology spread over much of the country and was siezed by a psychopathic demagogue with imperialist ambitions?
This ideology spreads like wild fire because it promises strength and unity through fear and corruption of law.
Very similiar to what the west has been doing lately though with more subtlty.
(Dixie Normous: Image specialist)
I think the majority of the world has learned from WWII nazis and what it can lead to. Of course not all have, but most. It's really hard to make literal nazis go mainstream these days.
Most Ideologies rely on promises of strength and unity, especially when threatened by a common enemy. That's how they are usually formed, sometimes the enemy is made up, sometimes it's real. When you see building toppling around you, it's not that hard to see if it's real.
(Old Spike)
Strength and unity is good. Under the banner of individual rights and people choosing for themselves.
The Ukrainian/western regime is using fear and corruption of law. That's the difference.
Same with the critical race theory, LGBT camapign of social reform, pedophelia pandering etc. All corruption of law to manufacture false unity through fear of persecution if you won't tolerate it or even activiely support it.
This hate didn't start with Putin, This was a western manufactured problem starting years ago.
(Site Administrator)
That describes a lot of Ukrainians but there are Nazis amongst them & some of the groups do have literal Nazi ideology. Within these groups there's probably a lot of those types you mentioned, as was the case in the original Nazi party, they didn't all believe every aspect of the mysticism or whatever. You'd imagine the vast majority agreed with the Nazi take on their race being superior to Jews, Roma & Slavs.
Conquering Europe isn't required to be a Nazi but that is one of the main goals of Azov types. I've heard many say it. They're supposedly on a mission to lead the white race in a cleansing of Europe against the Jewish-led undermensch, something pretty close to this. I think their leader said it a while back & it stuck. With some others it's simply ethnic hatred towards Russians - Russian Ukrainians & Russian Russians, they often call them Moscovites, or 'orcs' & spew racial superiority/hate shit, some of which I've shown on here. It's pretty ignorant stuff because they're Slavic brothers ... don't ask me how that works.
The reason that they are literal Nazis is because they trace this form of nationalist ideology back to the Nazi collaborators from WWII days when Ukrainians sided with Nazi Germany & formed Ukrainian units of the SS & whatnot. It has quite a bit to do with Stepan Bandera who led the OUN-B - a paramilitary group who the SS used to massacre tens of thousands of Poles & Jews.
You've likely seen OUN-B leader Stepan Bandera's headshot before
Since the coup in 2014 things have really amped up, they named a prominent Kyiv street after him & put up a statue of him
Jews were of course pretty pissed - https://www.timesofisrael.com/hundreds-march-in-ukraine-in-annual-tribute-to-nazi-collaborator/
This is a guy who was too extreme for the Nazi Party, the patriarch of a relatively popular brand of suicidal nationalism in Ukraine. The Russians call the followers of this ideology "Banderites" & they easily tick enough boxes to label them as Nazis IMO. Not neo-Nazis, they're slightly different. These guys (the more devoted ones ig) literally wanna do what the Nazis did, use the 1940s Nazi or Nazi collaborator colours & symbology in their logos, fw Nazi memorabilia & all that other shit. You get the idea.
(Dixie Normous: Image specialist)
" It's pretty ignorant stuff because they're Slavic brothers ... don't ask me how that works."
Thats pretty rich seeing what russia is doing now. Bombing their Slavic brother. Odd way of showing brotherly love.
As I've said many times before, the russia hate doesn't come from thin air. Theres always cause & effect.
(Site Administrator)
Russia didn't start this fight but they're gonna end it. That's how I see it.
I say it's weird that there's some freaky racial component. It actually has a history to it which has come down thru the centuries & was popularized by a 19th C German scholar who wrote a book about Russians being somehow Asiatic, that's the justification the Nazis used to treat Slavs as undermensch.
The extra weird thing about Ukrainians saying that about 'Moscovites' is it's based on a pretty vague concept of the 150 years of Mongolian rule in & around Russia but the Mongols were more settled in modern day Ukraine than they were further East towards Moscow so people in Ukraine mixed with them more if anything lol.
below is a video from a friend of mine, It has some good background of what Russophobic Europeans think of Russians with sources in the links & just summarizes it in the vid. I like the message of Asians embracing Russians as brothers. Geopolitically & culturally. Why not. I do think living in the vicinity of Mongolians has contributed to Russia's culture to a degree but this is more of a hunch. Mongolians were tough cookies & kept the Chinese on their toes for quite a while. China was under Mongolian rule for almost a century & Russia for 150 years, so they have that in common. It was about 800 years ago so I dunno if it still counts.
There's also chatter about the actual elite in Moscow - the siloviki - being impressed with China's system of governance (the results are hard to ignore) & perhaps wanting to emulate parts of it in Russia. Again, why not. It would be a more socially liberal form of China's meritocratic style of authoritarian rule than China I'd say, might be a good fit & help Russia advance.
(Old Spike)
"the group was nazi-leaning when formed, later absorbed a lot of new members that had absolutely no nazi leanings - so much so that the nazi-leaning leadership all left, and the group no longer has any nazi leanings."
Good apples do not turn bad apples good again. The bad apples have to be removed in these cases by force before an overwhelming force for good can begin a humane denazification process.
It takes years and immense resources and attention to accomplish.
When good people join a a pro nazi group, let's say out of ignorance to the groups aims. If you try to change them when you find out what they are doing they turn rabid and will tear you to pieces as soon as they believe you will not convert or leave.