Joe Rogan and Ben Shapiro Tear Apart Gender Reassignment and Bruce Jenner

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juliettangoblarg2's picture

*yawn* FullAuto spreading hate as usual. I understand there are crazies in every culture, but I'm transgender, and I'm a libertarian. From my stance, mental health disorder or physiological disorder is irrelevant. At the end of the day, it's still my healthcare and my decision. Anyone who disagrees can eat the end of my 12 gauge.

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skeptoid's picture

So you didn't watch the video clip?

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Fullauto223cal's picture

"Spreading hate".  Hmmmmm.....  who do think I hate?

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Fullauto223cal's picture

I understand there are crazies in every culture, - Being "crazy" and having a "mental disorder" are different things.

"but I'm transgender," - So at the very least you suffer a mental disorder.  That doesn't require me to hate you (I don't), nor does it equate to you being crazy (I don't know you so I can't say).

"and I'm a libertarian." - That is great, suffering gender identity disorder does not preclude you from being a libertarian any more than suffering from turrets or autism.

"From my stance, mental health disorder or physiological disorder is irrelevant." - Well you're wrong.  It's relevent when the left insists and pass laws that punish people who refuse to normalize a mental disorder.  It's relevent when 40% of transgender adults reported having made a suicide attempt.

"At the end of the day, it's still my healthcare and my decision. Anyone who disagrees can eat the end of my 12 gauge." - I'm not sure who this statement is addressed to since I've never advocated for a ban on transgender surgery.  So....yea.

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Grothesk's picture

FullAuto, as much as you are attempting to rebuff the Republican mantra, your hang up on transgender rights is very Republican of you.  You give a shit what's in other people's pants, you worry about "normalizing" civil rights, and you require that others agree with your classification of others.  That's being a Republican, bro.  You're a Republican, bro.

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Fullauto223cal's picture

Give me a break with the "Transgender rights" horse shit.  Transgender's aren't demanding equal rights, they're demanding special treatment.  Nobody has a "right" to demand other people alter their vocabulary.  Nobody has a "right" to demand society treat them as a man when they are clearly a woman, or vice versa.  And if you think it is then you have no fucking clue what a right is.

You give a shit what's in other people's pants, - When a man, pretending to be a woman, insists that everyone cater to his or her fantasy, it's not what is in their pants that matters so much as what is in their DNA.  A man can castrate himself and he's still a man.  A woman can have her clit sliced and diced into a fake dick and she is still a woman.  We are a sexually di-morphic species, there is far more to our gender than what our private parts look like.  But you don't want to talk about those other things, because when we begin to factor in everything your position that gender is a god damn choice begins to fucking fall apart.

you worry about "normalizing" civil rights, - WRONG.  I can't worry about something that doesn't exist.  I'm not worry about men dressing as women or the other way around.  I don't give a shit about that.  What I do give a shit about is the attempt to criminalize people for what they say or the opinions they hold.  I give a shit when a man pretending to be a woman demands the rest of society forgo reality and pander to his fucking fantasy.  I know you are capable of drawing this distinction but you will continue to ignore it and instead spin this into something else and label it "Republican".

You once told me your father was "right wing".  Well I suspect that because he's been around longer than you.  Hopefully you mature out of this bandwagon/feel good mentality of going along with shit because it makes you feel like you're standing up to "the man" and tearing down "the system".

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juliettangoblarg2's picture

LMAO. So moving past the point of saying shit just to piss you off. No I did not watch the video. But I did not watch the video because I don't give a shit what either of these guys say or think. Like I said earlier I'm a libertarian, It's irrelevant in my eyes. If you want to attack the left, then attack the left and not an entire demographic of people.

Yeah, we know it's a mental condition, but you can't provide any evidence that means anything other than the fact that it's a mental condition. Now as far as passing bills to help people? Why wouldn't we? Is it not mandated by law that handicapped individuals be accomodated?

Here's something I would like you to consider. Back before Bush and Obama. There were actually laws and guidelines for transgender people to follow. It wasn't in ever state, but a few states had them. However, sometime after 2000 there was huge push for the gay community and the trans community decided to jump on board. Now the LGB has been trying to shake the T for some time, personally I can't say I blame them. I stopped going to meetups and interacting with most other trans people outright. This wave of neoliberalism has devolved into facism. It's all, BE NICE OR ELSE! now.

Anyhow, my point here is this. We had a system in place for all of this a while ago. In some states you could even get your gender marker changed on your driver's license. Now though, you can walk into any planned parenthood and get hormones as long as you can pay for them. Kids are getting hormone treatments, which gives me nightmares of ridilin in 90's. I think you and I are more or less on the same page here Fullauto, but my point here is that if us more conservative folk are really about values, then maybe they should act like it and judge people based on the content of their character.

And I got it, I can't change my genetics anymore than you can change being an asshole. But if gender is so much more than genitals and genetics then how much relevance does physical appearance or social role have? What? Is it that you don't want to look at us? I work on medical technology right now, technology that may one day save your life or the life of one of your loved ones.

I got it, people are worried about the bathroom thing. That's completely understandable. Like I said earlier, there used to be a system in place for vetting people. Now I guess there is not.

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danmanjones's picture

" attack the left and not an entire demographic of people."

hmm.... maybe you are just crazy

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juliettangoblarg2's picture

Excuse me I should have said leftist politicians.

And yes, I am crazy. I'm one of societies crazy people. Been shit on by society most of my life for being crazy, and I've given up trying to please society.

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skeptoid's picture

The idea of forcing others to act out the highly divergent reality of a small minority of people is antithetical to libertarianism. There is little place for social regulation and engineering beyond the minimum required to ensure individual freedom with libertarianism. The root principle of libertarianism is to leave other people alone - not force them at gunpoint to enable your highly divergent mental reality (just trying to avoid the term mental illness). You are certainly not a libertarian and are very likely just trolling here in the most boring of ways.

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juliettangoblarg2's picture

I don't force anyone and I certainly wouldn't advocate that the government force anyone. In fact I didn't say anything about forcing anyone. I didn't say anything about using policy to force anyone. I simply said that policy has been used to accomodate handicapped individuals before. I did not in any way, shape, or form, suggest that we force anyone to do anything.

Where I live, the people I spend time around call me by chosen name and use female pronouns out of respect for me. I don't force them to do anything. I've even told many of them to their faces that they don't have to call me anything. You can call me Tranny to my face, I don't give a shit.

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skeptoid's picture

Where I live, knowing refusal to call someone by the pronoun they demand to reflect their subjective emotional reality even if it doesn't mesh at all with your understanding of objective truth is against civil law and, if one refuses to pay a penalty or respect a judgment requiring behavioral modification, can easily lead to imprisonment. Being hauled before a human rights tribunal also isn't so great for a person's career. That's where I live - that's how persons such as you are accommodated in my society.

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juliettangoblarg2's picture

That is extremely unfortunate. Is that Canada? I heard the feminists have had their way up there. You have my sympathies.

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skeptoid's picture

Yes it is Canada. Postmodern neomarxists have had their way up here, and thirdwave feminists consist almost entirely of this type.

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juliettangoblarg2's picture

Yall's divorce court is fucked up. I went through the US divorce court as kid in here in the US when my parents split and my mom used almost every opportunity to fuck with my dad. That was hard to watch.

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puttefnask's picture

Mental health disorder can make you suicidal and a potential threat to other people.

If you truly were a libertarian you would understand how that affects your rights that are supposed to ensure your liberty.

Threatening the lives of people who disagrees with you is not in line with libertarianism at all. That's fascism.

 

 

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juliettangoblarg2's picture

So disregarding the fact that what was inflammatory towards Fullauto. My statements still stands to some extent.

Mental Health disorder means nothing. It only means something because you and other people keep making it into something. For most trans people suicidal behavior is exhibited as a result of social stress. In other words. They are suicidal because people just like you treat them like shit with out a second thought to the idea that they might have thoughts and feelings just like you. And CAN be violent, does not mean IS violent.

And Facism? If you expect me or anyone really, to just walk into a looney bin quietly, or to take the treatments YOU want them to have, just because they live a life differently from you, you're out of your mind. Under any other circumstances a human being would be justified in defending their right to choose for themselves. Whether that's healthcare or anything else. I've every right to defend myself. And people like myself wouldn't feel the urge to get violent if other's didn't threaten us or ours to begin with. To think that you would suggest to anyone that they should just lay down and take it is bullshit.

And I got it. Mental health disorder. But assholes all over have the gaul to call people like me shit and abuse us because we're "crazy", because we wear dresses. Mean while, shit politicians make shit policies that put all of our lives and our livelihoods at stake. But NOOOOOO, got spend TAX dollars on dictating whether or not a dude can wear a fucking dress.

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danmanjones's picture

There's no law against wearing women's clothing... so I don't see what the big deal is. People judge all sorts of things & sometimes it seems shitty of them to do it but just ignore the haters & find people who accept you. It's the same for anyone that doesn't follow the mainstream.

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skeptoid's picture

One of my parents was a mental health worker for 40 years. A schizophrenic who believes the city bus wants him to kill the local baker cannot refuse treatment. So your "anyone would be justified in refusing treatment for mental health issues" is incorrect, although people with homocidal and suicidal health issues often do avoid treatment (because the treatment makes them feel like they are not themselves) with tragic results. Of course, trans persons should not be forced to take drugs or forced to see a psychiatrist, but when complaining about depression they should be recommended to a psychiatrist who will not immediately indulge and enable their initial mental state.

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juliettangoblarg2's picture

I agree. But the transition process has been the preferred treatment path for 50 years. No other research has yielded a better treatment (that I know of). I did not go to a gender psychologist, whatver that means. I saw just a regular old psychologist. Two in fact. And I have to see more as well.

My life literally changed after hormones. I wen't from depression and anxiety to every day being amazing. I can't wake wait to wake up in the morning. And I understand that there are legit wack jobs out there. I raised by a mother who I am sure has NPD and I think a large number of people in the trans community aren't trans, they have NPD and just want the attention. I however, am still quite the introvert after hormones and don't get out much. Don't even talk on spiked that much but came back to see the site had moved and devolved into political shit posting. Is the blacksmith guy still around? He was cute.

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skeptoid's picture

From time to time the Purgatory guy posts a new video. Yes, a group of folks came onto the site and tried to make it 24/7 anti-Trump propaganda with extreme left messaging. A few posted comments, but most stayed silent and just gang-rated and gang-voted to suppress anyone that disagreed with extreme left messaging even if their post had nothing to do with politics. I have deliberately avoided Trump-related posts since the new site began in an effort to reduce the political stuff on this site, but unsurprisingly you can see that the extreme left folks aren't really interested in discussion or have much respect for this site. They're just a group of cowards who saw a lot of criticism of the extreme left, and also three avid Trump supporters, on this site and lost their shit. The left has always been overly represented on this site, but discussions have been more-or-less productive to some degree. These extreme left people are a whole different animal - terribly damaged and rabidly frothing at the mouth.

I despise the whole binary left-right paradigm. Thing's been co-opted and designed to freeze our development.

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Grothesk's picture

"Mental health disorder can make you suicidal and a potential threat to other people."

Donald Trump doesn't seem to believe that.  He had Caitlyn Jenner in a room completely alone with him after he was elected.  Trump himself thinks you are wrong.

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Dagambit's picture

You know you used to contribute things I actually would want to read, lately I just find myself disappointed with your lack of effort to say anything actually worth something on topic. Or at least back up your statements with facts and links. I want old Grothesk back. I liked that person! Even when we didn't see eye to eye, I felt like maybe i learned something. 

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Grothesk's picture

I can only tell that you're responding to me because you said my name.  This new layout makes it extremely difficult to follow conversations and who is replying to who.

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juliettangoblarg2's picture

I second this.

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PaulishMH's picture

yah, Ben specifically says he doesn't care what you (as a Transgender person) decide to do with your body

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juliettangoblarg2's picture

Try to respond to everyone here.

I understand exactly what you're all saying. First of all, schizophrenia is not gender dysphoria (not even close). Second of all, my point here isn't to complain or rage or anything like that. My whole point here is to ask why any of this is even an issue. Like why the fuck is this even a talking point. Besides generating money for their show and all. If men like Ben Shapiro don't care, then why is it that they keep bring this shit up.

"ITS A MENTAL HEALTH CONDITION!" Okay. And!?

What's the point of drawing the distinction if the end goal isn't to paint transgender people as crazy whack jobs that need to be locked away. Why even bring it up?  Maybe it's just me, but when someone points the finger at someone else and says some shit like that, in my mind they are already drawing a line in the sand. They are already trying to paint a stereotype. Because most people, especially here in the US, view mental health conditions in a negative light. Do they just not understand that the transition process is the treatment? It's been the preferred method of treatment for like 50 years. Nothing else works as well to my knowledge.

Realistically, I'm no more crazy than people who go to church every sunday and pray to an insivible man in a cloud. And some of those people opely advocate for dropping bombs on middle eastern cities, putting non-violent criminals in prison for extended lengths of time, or worse.

And I'm not trying to control what anyone is saying. I'm simply offering my counter to the argument. Which is to question the purpose of the conversation and where the conversation (not the video conversation in particular but any conversation regarding transgender people) is going.

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skeptoid's picture

Frankly, I think it's pretty cool to have an actual transgender person participating in the discussion.

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acdc51502112's picture

Though I don't always agree, we need as many different opinions as possible....none of the one side vs one side polarisation

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danmanjones's picture

Yep. Especially one who isn't claiming to be some kind of victim. The different perspective is appreciated for sure.

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backdraft's picture
Beta Tester

Don't really see it as a mental health issues. Maybe for some it really is, but not in general. It's rather a case of female brain in a male body or vice versa. We already know male and female brains are different, so why couldn't it be possible that in some people there's some over lap that causes this.

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daftcunt's picture

Don't try with reason, don't try with science, just let it go and let them be.....

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