Daftcunt, what the fuck is happening in Spain?

Fullauto223cal's picture

Catalonia’s independence referendum explained | The Economist

Catalonia’s independence referendum is due to take place on October 1st, in clear defiance of the Spanish government. We outline why some Catalans want independence from Spain, and why only 41% are likely to vote yes.

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daftcunt's picture

OK, In spain there have been separatist movements for a very long time, the basque terrorist organisation ETA is pretty famous throughout the world. In recent years they have mede pretty much peace with the spanish government, though.

 

Now Catalunya is a slightly different kettle of fish. The separatists (right wing, not left like ETA) have gained majority in the catalan government and insisted to get a referendum going to vote for catalan independence. This referendum has been declared unconstitutional by the highest court in Spain but the catalan "leaders" decided to ignore the situation. Similar to any state in the US the constitution does not allow for a part of spain to be separated.

 

Now there is the mediterranian temper, isn't there.

 

The referendum was dated 01/10, police force was sent to Catalunya by the main government to stop the referendum, some politicians were arrested and the real clusterfuck began.

Separatist parents even locked themselves in schools and other polling stations soas to secure their right to vote and use their kids as a shield, now they blame everybody but themselves if their child was injured.

 

It was handled poorly by the conservative government and now everyone shouts for Rajoy to resign, LOL. I would agree but for different reasons.

 

Some think they should have let the vote take place because the separatists were expected to lose but of course following brexit and trump feet were too cold for this. 

 

Now the separatists "won" 97% : 3% or something idiotic like that. There are reports of voting urns being brought "full of voting sheets" TO some polling stations. Everything is meaningless, people have been hurt for no reason but ego of politicians and right wing separatists.

 

 

In the end the "separatists" fell prey to similar rhetoric used in the brexit and farage / trump like promises that everything would be better if catalunya seperated from spain. However, on the "how" side they are pretty weak, like farage. For example ALL police (except local), fire fighters, hospital staff (except private), etc etc are employed by the spanish government, after a "Cexit" they would be abandoned. Borders would be implemented and Catalunya would be expelled from the EU (in which the separatists desperately want to remain, btw) and the Euro. The path back into the EU would forever be blocked by Spains right to veto. Basically BY DEFAULT they would find themselves in a worse situation the brits would be after a "hard" brexit.

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Fullauto223cal's picture

Other than the funk of your Trump and Farage hatred, that's a pretty nice wrap up.

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daftcunt's picture

Please note (again) that I do not "hate" trump or farage. I simply portray them the way I see them (and of course trump does not stop to be a source of amusement).

 

 

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daftcunt's picture

Just an update / clarification:

 

In catalunya (like in balearics) they have their "own" language, catalan, and insist on using it, they oblige children in public schools to take all classes in catalan. Catalan and the other spanish local languages were supressed during Franco in an attempt to unitespain. Nowadays the language is supposed to be "valued" the same as castellano (spanish) but of course many things are only available in catalan. So for years now it kept creeping in more and more, of course heavily supported by the separatists. Many catalans insist in only speaking catalan* and will not reply when addressed in castellano. 

What they don't seem to get is that there are NO advantages to having and insisting on using an "own" language if it limits you later in life should you want to get a job or go to university outside your area. Here in Mallorca government insists that health workers and doctors speak a very high level of catalan, very few do so  we are stuck with those that are very good at language and have medical skills rather than vice versa.

 

 

What the separatists als REFUSE to understand is reason. The propaganda tells them shit that can be compared to "brexit the movie" and the trump campaign (OK, fullauto: Is she locked up? Is Obamacare debolished? Is the wall built? Is the middle class better off?).

They refuse to understand that they will NOT:

  • Keep their national police, army firefighters etc
  • Keep the Euro currency
  • Keep open borders
  • Keep EU membership (or lateron ever gain it again)

 

In a similar fashion to farage one of the separatist leaders already announced he will step down after the vote [because of course they don't have a fucking clue how to implement it and the whole sharade was just intended to stir up shit]

 

And stir up shit it did!

 

Rajoy sent police to some polling stations in order to stop voting. This, of course, went extrememly well, as can be seen in various videos (some including fake or even real blood)

 

It was a complete desaster. The government not having the balls to go in "full Franco style" with army they took an half arsed approach.

 

The rational thing to do would have been leaving them do their dumb shit and then later laughing them and their "vote" out of fucking court, instead they handed international sympathy to the separatists and put the spanish government in a very weak position. 

 

*Here in Mallorca the language is used by the simple minded "nationalists" in a different fashion, i.e. to seperate themselves, if I try to speak to them in catalan I will be replied to in castellano, many will simply refuse to speak to me in catalan to make it clear that I am the alien!

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Fullauto223cal's picture

Well, I don't have a dog in the hunt so all I can base my opinion on is first principles, and I find mine in the preamble of the US Constitition, which states.

 

We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.

That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness. Prudence, indeed, will dictate that Governments long established should not be changed for light and transient causes; and accordingly all experience hath shewn, that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable, than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed. But when a long train of abuses and usurpations, pursuing invariably the same Object evinces a design to reduce them under absolute Despotism, it is their right, it is their duty, to throw off such Government, and to provide new Guards for their future security.

 

As Governments derive their just powers from the consent of the governed, if the people of Catalonia vote to withdraw their consent then the Spanish government ought to allow it to happen.

 

However, Governments long established should not be changed for light and transient causes.  I'm not fully informed on the sitution I can't say one way or the other if their reasons for wanting to rule themselves rise above "light and transient causes".  I believe that is up the people of Catalonia to decide and ought to be published.

 

What are the abuses and usurpations being done by the central Government?  Is it just a different language and culture?  If that's it, unless they're being prevented from having it, which you claim they are not, I don't see that as a reason for seperation.

 

Now you keep making comparisons to Britan.  Britan was a soverign nation before and will be after it leaves the EU.  The UK thing is a whole other bag of worms and they did the right thing.  The EU is on a suicide mission and the people of Britan wanted out before the bus went over the cliff.

 

As far as keeping the national police, army firefighters; do you think they would not raise their own forces to replace those?

 

As far as keeping the Euro currency, if they became a soverign nation they could just print there own currency or keep using the Euro despite the objections of Spain.

 

As far as keeping open borders, why would they?  Open boarders are allowing the Islamic takover of Europe currently.

 

As far as keeping EU membership, again, why would they want to remain and subjegate themselves to some other power?  As far as trade, they have sea ports and could trade with other countries until Spain got over the divorce.

 

But again, I don't have a dog in the hunt.  I just think, as a general principle, if a sufficent number of a population wishes to go their own way, it's only going to do more harm than good to keep them against their will.

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daftcunt's picture

The withdrawal from spain would not be a catalonian decision but a spanish decision, so ALL spanish citizens would have to be asked, not only catalonians. 

 

"What are the abuses and usurpations being done by the central Government? "

Well, basically it is the richest region (tourism) and thus pays more towards spain. They want "all" to themselves. There was a lot of corruption and black money in the spanish government, which did not help. Also despite all this the government was re-elected.

 

"Now you keep making comparisons to Britan."

 

No, I don't. I only make comparisons to the brexit with regards to the misinformation, propaganda and "fake news" that was spread and happily and unquestioningly absorbed by those that support separation, in the time leading up to it. Also the EU has a vehicle for countries leving the union, spain has not.

 

They appear to think the police etc. is "theirs" and that they would keep it. But police is not the worst!
Think about Public transport, not local but nationwide and international, which is all controlled and paid for by the spanish government. They would be a holiday nation finding themselves without airports or flight controllers, wouldn't that be fun? 

 

They would have to print their own currency. In order to use the Euro they would have to:

  1. be a member of he EU
  2. match certain criteria during a certain amount of time to qualify to use the Euro

Both these prerequisites would not be met, hence no Euro.

 

Why would they keep open borders?

 

Because they live from tourism, there is virtually no other industry to speak off (of course some wine and olive oil etc.). Despite the clear supremacist message the separatists have, they want open borders, they want to remain in the EU, i.e. have the cake and eat it. What they don't realize, it seems, is that they then will have to contribute towards the EU (also to support the rest of spain, LOL, these payments would be less though.

 

The limited news sources you consult don't give you a full picture of the EU, its benefits and disadvantages. Your knowledge is basically that what was distributed by "brexit the movie", so I will not discuss the EU in general.

 

Just one thing:

Even the seperatists think it's better to be in then out.

 

And lastly, when california came up in a similar discussion you were singing from a different hymn sheet.

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