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skeptoid's picture

Kenyan Man Defends Himself from Guard Dog Who Got Off Leash | Active Self Protection

Okay Daftcunt, given the number of times this guy says "dominance" I invite you to go to town with a more precise explanation of what's happening here. I'm not baiting you - the floor is yours and I'm curious to read your take on the video and this guy's analysis of it.

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thegent's picture

his buddy is just like 'thank fuck he didnt go for me..im outta here'

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daftcunt's picture

You ask, you get:

First we have to understand what dominance is, at least in the broadest terms (and not what some like to make us believe):

"Dominance is a characteristic of highly social animals, such as humans, in which individuals of the same species compete intensely with one another for food, mates, territory, or any other resource, including money [the latter of course only if humans are concerned]."

 

So in effect the narrator may be right(-ish) if we ignore the "same species" part of the definition (as we live together with dogs in a family setting in some circumstances I guess we can). We can only assume why the dog gave the attacking behaviour, what we can be fairly certain about is that the dog was NOT a trained guard dog but most likely an insecure, stressed, reactive dog that was possibly (ab-) used as a guard dog (one of my clients has a Malinois who reacts like this).

 

First we had an attack and altercation in which the kicking (or "communicative touches" as some like to put it) made the dog "snap out"* (as CM likes to put it) of the initial attack , btw try this with a pitbull in the same state of mind and they probably won't stop, at least not that easily.

Then the guy displayed relatively calm bold, threatening (maybe somewhat dominant territorial**) behaviour. In the end the dog did not submit but flee.

 

The guy appeared to stay calm during the whole exercise, which is a very good thing. Panicking, screaming and running away is not adviseable.

 

In this real life situation this was the correct action to take. As a training situation that would be completely inappropriate.

 

To sum up: I don't think this falls into the "dominance" category, for all we know:

  • The only "competition" between the two opponents was territorial, although in this case more in relation to safe distance rather than territory as such.
  • The dog felt threatened and either reacted in a way they previously learned it would get them out of the situation or out of pure instinct
  • The bold fighting back and threatening behaviour of the human made the dog flee and not submit

 

* As far as the learning experience for the dog goes:

They learned that the consequence of their behaviour is undesireable ("positive punishment", oh look a definition needed to have an educated conversation about the topic) and thus may supress the behaviour in the future, at least until the adverse stimulus becomes great enough to make them "forget" the learned and react like this, or possibly even more fiercly with more kicking or beating required to stop them (if they stop at all), again.  

 

** It is not really territorial, is it. If we think about it he just asked for "his space" not the territory as such.

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skeptoid's picture

This was a good explanation despite your slander regarding Cesar.  I also concluded that it was not in fact a trained attack or guard dog but just some dog that was more alarmed than murderous in its intent.

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daftcunt's picture

"....slander regarding Cesar..."

I don't understand which part of my comment is supposed to be that.

 

So we all understand:

Slander - The action or crime of making a false spoken statement damaging to a person's reputation.

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skeptoid's picture

Putting aside your tendency to miss hyperbole, you wrote that kicking a dog in the face that's attacking you is an example of Cesar's communicative touch. Anyone familiar with Cesar knows that Cesar would say at the point this dog enters the frame the situation has gone far beyond the point where a communicative touch (which is NOT kicking a dog in the face) is going to do anything other than further endanger you. So either you actually know nothing about Cesar Millan (a real possibility) or you're deliberately misrepresenting him (to damage his reputation). I honestly toggle back and forth on which it actually is with you - I've seen you many times make declarative statements from an elitist position later shown to have been foolish mainly because you knew next to nothing about the thing you were commenting on.

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thegent's picture

so youre not supposed to kick the dog if it attacks? what do you do then?

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skeptoid's picture

Oh fuck no - you are supposed to kick the dog if it attacks like this. This guy did pretty much everything right here. How did you get that from my comment, or did you think that's what Daftcunt was saying? I think Cesar would also agree that everything the guy did was necessary.

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thegent's picture

ah ok i got it from your last comment but on second reading i obviously got mixed up with what you were saying...mostly this part..

'Anyone familiar with Cesar knows that Cesar would say at the point this dog enters the frame the situation has gone far beyond the point where a communicative touch (which is NOT kicking a dog in the face)'

i dont know.. if it happens i know now to stay calm and kick the dog in the face..

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daftcunt's picture

Suddenly "political correctness" appears to be important but only when the topic is close to our heart, LOL.

 

The dog was touched (in this case kicked in the snout) and something was communicated by that ("if you behave like this it hurts").

We could have used the relevant scientific expressions for it, as they exist*, but as you reject them (probably because you consider them slandering or don't understand them, most likely both) I translated into the "fanboy talk" which of course does not have a proper definition (other than "more or less hard kick or hit targeting certain parts of the body", the hit on the neck also often referred to as "simulating a bite", for all we know the definition may also include for example effects of electric shock or vibrating or spray collars as they are used in a similar fashion).

Of course everyone can use their own words although there are definitions in existance, these may sound less important or pompous though.

 

What surprised me was that you did not take issue with the definition of "dominance" I referred to as it does not at all reflect CM "fanboy talk". 

 

And please, if and when answering, detach yourself from your emotions as much as you can (take CM as a role model for that).

Don't use pompous SJW like speech like "Anyone familiar with Cesar knows that Cesar would say..." or "I think Cesar would also agree....." as second guessing a person you "know" only from TV (and maybe from reading their books) just makes you look naïve, c'moan you are better than that.

Try to have real conversation for once. PLEASE!

 

 

* And it is hillariously simple:

  • dog showed behaviour
  • dog was positively punished 
  • dog's behaviour changed

 As we can see there is neither a qualification (like severe, strong, medium, mild) required to describe the mechanics behind the situation, this (as for example the learning experience, stress or fear) would be part of the next levels of the analysis, nor is there a judgement regarding the method applied, we leave this to the SJW's on either side of the spectrum. 

 

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skeptoid's picture

Are you suggesting a second, personal definition of "communicative touch" that you've devised yourself? Please share.

 

What is CM "Fanboy talk"? I've never heard it or read it. Is that the same as what Cesar Millan says? Seriously - are you at all familiar with Cesar Millan? He would have agreed with your assessment, minus your obvious ignorance of what Cesar advocates.

 

I don't know what you mean by political correctness, but in case you haven't noticed I've been trying to use mainly positive reinforcement with you since I realized how deeply hurt you are. I'll keep working on ya.

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daftcunt's picture

"He would have agreed with your assessment,.." again you are scond guessing a person you don't know. Why do you do that all the time? It really makes you look insecure and somewhat needy.

 

Do you actually have a definition of "communicative touch"? It would be interesting to read as I can't remember it, and I read his books and applied "his" methods (inverted commas when it is not really his but common practice in "traditional" dog training). 

 

I tell you what I mean by

a) political correctness: not using well established terms and definitions but sweet talk

b) fanboy talk: using the "sweet talk" above without scrutiny or even understanding

 

Example Observation:

  1. Dog barks at other dog
  2. Dog is kicked in the side by handler
  3. Dog is startled and stops barking

Sweet (also fanboy) talk:

  1. Dog barks at other dog
  2. Dog receives "communicative touch"
  3. Dog was "snapped out of it"

Behavioural evaluation:

  1. dog gives behaviour
  2. dog receives positive punishment 
  3. dog's behaviour is altered

 

 

Also still nothing on the dominance? That is disappointing.......

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daftcunt's picture

Also:

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