Keep sweet talking your delusions to yourself. It doesn't matter whether one believes in the christian or roman mythology. Fact remains Jesus' brithday was "altered" to lure the pagans in, from then on the festivities were "sold" as a christian event.
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Bobbob (Site Administrator)
Agreed. I've told you before that as an Orthodox Christian I'm not bound by biblical literalism. The greatest mathematicians and theologians say Jesus was born around 15 September in the year we now call 5 BC. That's right, we lost a few years in the dark ages and are actually coming up on the year 2027 y'all. ;-)
That said, icons of His image are there for a reason. To remind folks that He walked among us. So the Jesus 'mythers' as we call them are pulling a sham when they try to retrofit gods like Mythras to match the greatest story ever told. Virgin birth? Indeed. Original sources say Mythras was born from a stone. So basically..suck it.
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daftcunt (Old Spike)
Here we go again. What is it with you that you have this arrogance of the believer and constant "OUR BELIEF IS BETTER THAN OTHERS'" when the topic comes up? Shouldn't christians be meek and humble about this?, Isn't this what makes (made) the difference to other religions? Remember you don't know better than everyone else, you simply chose to believe something that (as you don't take the bible literally) had to be heavily altered (to the extent that many say "ah well, the old testament isn't valid any longer, we just leave it in there for good measure, and in case we burn in hell if we remove it") and "interpreted" to make any sense at all in the modern world.
It is completely and utterly irrelevant whether Jesus or Mithras or Mohammed or other religious figures actually walked upon us (most of them are older anyway so evidence would be even more scarce and stories around it would be even more ridiculous.
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Bobbob (Site Administrator)
Speaking of here we go again, there you go switching from perpetrator to victim again, your go-to move. You waited to Christmas day to post a video by Stephen Fry, an anti-theist much like yourself, who in this video touts as fact what simply is not. Don't straw-man my belief system by forgetting the 'ortho' in orthodoxy, ie. we try to hold the line on Jesus's teachings and definitely don't try to impose them on others. You only need to look at the amount of religious freedom in christian-based vs muslim countries (and I'm only citing the latter since you chose to bring their prophet into it, above). As for it being irrelevant as to whether they actually existed, that's kind of cheap given that this is the foundation upon which 'Christ'ianity is built upon. Maybe put some more thought into your, what would you call it... argument, I suppose.
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daftcunt (Old Spike)
As I am not a believer I am not a victim of you belitteling and condescending approach towards other believers.
Of course I did this on christmas day, as it is the best fitting date, doh! If you check back I probably posted it last year (or the year before too).
As far as your prophets go, it really doesn't matter: you can't prove (other than anecdotal) that Jesus (or "your" god) existed, neither can you disprove Mithras or Mohammed (or roman or greek gods or the spaghetti monster) existed, you just choose to believe so. If you feel you can provide proof, be my guest, and I will call you a "knower" from now on.
Your religion gives you more "freedoms"? Well does it make it the correct religion, muslims aand others have a different understanding after all? Does it give you these freedoms because of human effort or because "your" god instructed so?
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Bobbob (Site Administrator)
So we're very clear. First, you are a 'believer'. You believe beyond a shadow of a doubt there is nothing. It's all a sham. The rest of us are suckers. You've graduated past agnosticism and atheism and by deliberately picking Christmas day to action your disbelief you have confirmed that you're an anti-theist, like Stephen Fry. So.. embrace it. And keep us apprised of your application for official religious status, to avoid further persecution or whatver. Second, you're misinformed and spreading misinformation. I would have thought you would relish Christmas-time since that's when CNN and other open-minded channels wait and go-out-of-their-way to air specials like 'Jesus, separtaing the man from the myth' (paraphrasing on exact title), but even those who don't believe in Him have acknowledged that the historical record confirms His existence. And Third, you're a hyppocrite. Firing off your salvos from a christian-founded republic, a safe-haven that allows you the freedom to do so. You're showing all the class of a man who climbs on top of another man's shoulders, just so you can spit on his head. I've said it before, show us just how cool you are by setting up shop in a muslim country (again, since you brought them into this) and speak-up against religion then. But you won't - cause despite the above, nobody's saying you're stupid.
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daftcunt (Old Spike)
"First, you are a 'believer'. You believe beyond a shadow of a doubt there is nothing."
This statement couldn't be more wrong! I do NOT believe that (a) god(s) exist as there simply is no evidence would support the hypothesis. Neither do I believe that there is a deity required to explain the universe and / or our existance.
So I am a non believer, i.e. an atheist.
I am NOT an "anti theist" (maybe Fry is) neither as I don't care what people personally believe unless it interferes with my life (christmas does).
Now BOTH of us are not "knowers" on this topic, you are a believer, I am not. You think there is enough evidence to support the hypothesis (however, if I remember correctly you never came up with any), I think there is none.
On other issues we both actually are believers, for example we both believe that there is sufficient evidence for efficiency of covid vaccination that we decided to get them (my wife got the booster today, I have it next week), we also trust the science on that.
Well, I see the evidence for Jesus as anecdotal, but even if he existed and wandered the earth this is still no evidence for a deity as such. Did he turn water into wine or was it a sham? Did he heal the sick or was his success similar to those "modern preachers" enriching themselves from the vulnerable and deluded? We will probably only find out if somone invents a time machine.
Lastly the hypocrasy is with you my friend. The society in which we lived in was achieved BY humans DESPITE, not because of religious sects, if we as a society wouldn't have evolved and learned to ignore parts of a "holy book" as such this would never have happened. Some have evolved even further and could completely let go of antiquated belief systems, others haven't. Now don't get me wrong (again) I don't want to belittle the achievements of our society and that many believers played an important role in this (and believe me, people with your superiority mindset most definitely did not).
But hey, letting go of something is harder for some than it is for others and then there's peer pressure and not to forget brainwashing of children from a very early age.......
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Bobbob (Site Administrator)
I said you believe with all your being that there is nothing. Some folks struggle their whole lives to have their faith be as sure as yours. Congratulations. And don't say you're not an anti-theist when the shoe fits you so nicely. To call yourself atheist is mere modesty on your part. Moving on,.. How were you incovenienced by the way? (genuinely curious).
As for calling the evidence anecdotal, it would seem that way to you given your cursory (at best) interest in the subject matter. So let's agree, once again, to disagree on this.
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daftcunt (Old Spike)
"I said you believe with all your being that there is nothing." again this is not correct.
Again it is the opposite: I don't see any evidence for this to be the case.
What evidence do YOU think is out there?
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Bobbob (Site Administrator)
I asked you first about the timing of your post and how Christmas 'interferes' with your life. Will you answer that for me? Otherwise this is you. This is you now..
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daftcunt (Old Spike)
I thought this was obvious?
But if it makes you happy:
Christmas and other religious holidays are interfering with everybody's life on a yearly basis. I would prefer not to get jesus' wrongly declared birthday shoved into my face every year and having to arrange my shopping and business habits around it. Every employee should have an allowance (additional to "normal" holidays) of "personal" days off per year they can take whenever they want so they can practice the rituals of their respective religious sects or do whatever they choose to do. There is no need whatsoever for (almost) the whole country shutting down for a day or two because of people's beliefs. Job done, freedom of choice.
Especially christmas has turned from what it was intended to be into a commercial frenzy, the mood only really lightened by the odd yt video of spoilt brats getting the wrrong gift or christmas tree (also a pagan invention btw) accidents involving fat people or pets. You of all people should actually be in favour of this......
Also I don't mind honking at people with a bumper sticker like that, if it makes them happy whilst they start moving I am happy.
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daftcunt (Old Spike)
So, I replied, don't want to return the favour? Didn't expect you to tbh, so don't beat yourself up over it....
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Bobbob (Site Administrator)
Oh, man, I'm sorry that you thought your answer somehow satisfactorily answered the question, beyond your usual reply of I live in a christian-founded democratic republic so I feel it's important we be more evolved and not shove Jesus in my face and we should give up the history, culture, founding principles and very mindset that allowed my country to be the bastion of freedom that it is, to make room for those who want to impose their new and better way instead. Take your hand off the 'organized religion is the source of all things evil cause Dawkins said, grenade' but let the other guys keep holding it.. Is that about right? Yeah, thought so.
Anyway, getting to your question: 'As far as your prophets go, it really doesn't matter: you can't prove (other than anecdotal) that Jesus (or "your" god) existed'
There is evidence that is out there and easily googleable, so I won't bore you, but if you want an atheist's deep dive on the subject, can I suggest:
Person of Interest by J.Warner Wallace, forensics expect. Link above to YouTube video. But basically, we know that Jesus existed because if you dismiss His existence, you've still got the problem of a huge, Jesus-shaped hole left behind.
And with all sincerity, wishing you and yours a Happy New Year.
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daftcunt (Old Spike)
Well I asked you what you think, but happy new year anyway.
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Bobbob (Site Administrator)
You got my response. Evidence of Jesus's very real existence and contribution is all around you. Some of us are satisfied by going off of faith and don't feel the need to declare it or justify it further to those who, as is their right, don't. I'd just add here in more direct response along the lines of what you're looking for, that myth, whether Zeus or Mythras didn't have the ability to make the same impact. Cheers.
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Pdub (Old Spike)
Doesn't matter. Jesus won. Mithras....myth.
Humans copy each other. We look to each other for guidance, direction, instruction, teaching, and information. Over time the information distorts and changes just enough and we get something that looks like it has progressed or evolved.
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Dude (Old Spike)
His name was Iesa pronouncead as - Iyesa
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Bobbob (Site Administrator)
heck, i just want to know how if Mythras was borne out of rock before the time of man.. who were these shephards that have now made their way into the story? I mean, if an unbiased journalist like Stephen Fry says it, it must be accurate.
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Dude (Old Spike)
The shepherds are time travelers
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Bobbob (Site Administrator)
See, that's the right answer. And while we're on the subject of time-travel.. those accurately-depicted angels seem kind of familiar. Just saying..
Comments
(Site Administrator)
You outdid yourself with this year's Christmas offering Daft. Just gonna leave this here.
https://www.google.com/amp/s/coldcasechristianity.com/writings/is-jesus-simply-a-retelling-of-the-mithras-mythology/amp/
(Old Spike)
Keep sweet talking your delusions to yourself. It doesn't matter whether one believes in the christian or roman mythology. Fact remains Jesus' brithday was "altered" to lure the pagans in, from then on the festivities were "sold" as a christian event.
(Site Administrator)
Agreed. I've told you before that as an Orthodox Christian I'm not bound by biblical literalism. The greatest mathematicians and theologians say Jesus was born around 15 September in the year we now call 5 BC. That's right, we lost a few years in the dark ages and are actually coming up on the year 2027 y'all. ;-)
That said, icons of His image are there for a reason. To remind folks that He walked among us. So the Jesus 'mythers' as we call them are pulling a sham when they try to retrofit gods like Mythras to match the greatest story ever told. Virgin birth? Indeed. Original sources say Mythras was born from a stone. So basically..suck it.
(Old Spike)
Here we go again. What is it with you that you have this arrogance of the believer and constant "OUR BELIEF IS BETTER THAN OTHERS'" when the topic comes up? Shouldn't christians be meek and humble about this?, Isn't this what makes (made) the difference to other religions? Remember you don't know better than everyone else, you simply chose to believe something that (as you don't take the bible literally) had to be heavily altered (to the extent that many say "ah well, the old testament isn't valid any longer, we just leave it in there for good measure, and in case we burn in hell if we remove it") and "interpreted" to make any sense at all in the modern world.
It is completely and utterly irrelevant whether Jesus or Mithras or Mohammed or other religious figures actually walked upon us (most of them are older anyway so evidence would be even more scarce and stories around it would be even more ridiculous.
(Site Administrator)
Speaking of here we go again, there you go switching from perpetrator to victim again, your go-to move. You waited to Christmas day to post a video by Stephen Fry, an anti-theist much like yourself, who in this video touts as fact what simply is not. Don't straw-man my belief system by forgetting the 'ortho' in orthodoxy, ie. we try to hold the line on Jesus's teachings and definitely don't try to impose them on others. You only need to look at the amount of religious freedom in christian-based vs muslim countries (and I'm only citing the latter since you chose to bring their prophet into it, above). As for it being irrelevant as to whether they actually existed, that's kind of cheap given that this is the foundation upon which 'Christ'ianity is built upon. Maybe put some more thought into your, what would you call it... argument, I suppose.
(Old Spike)
As I am not a believer I am not a victim of you belitteling and condescending approach towards other believers.
Of course I did this on christmas day, as it is the best fitting date, doh! If you check back I probably posted it last year (or the year before too).
As far as your prophets go, it really doesn't matter: you can't prove (other than anecdotal) that Jesus (or "your" god) existed, neither can you disprove Mithras or Mohammed (or roman or greek gods or the spaghetti monster) existed, you just choose to believe so. If you feel you can provide proof, be my guest, and I will call you a "knower" from now on.
Your religion gives you more "freedoms"? Well does it make it the correct religion, muslims aand others have a different understanding after all? Does it give you these freedoms because of human effort or because "your" god instructed so?
(Site Administrator)
So we're very clear. First, you are a 'believer'. You believe beyond a shadow of a doubt there is nothing. It's all a sham. The rest of us are suckers. You've graduated past agnosticism and atheism and by deliberately picking Christmas day to action your disbelief you have confirmed that you're an anti-theist, like Stephen Fry. So.. embrace it. And keep us apprised of your application for official religious status, to avoid further persecution or whatver. Second, you're misinformed and spreading misinformation. I would have thought you would relish Christmas-time since that's when CNN and other open-minded channels wait and go-out-of-their-way to air specials like 'Jesus, separtaing the man from the myth' (paraphrasing on exact title), but even those who don't believe in Him have acknowledged that the historical record confirms His existence. And Third, you're a hyppocrite. Firing off your salvos from a christian-founded republic, a safe-haven that allows you the freedom to do so. You're showing all the class of a man who climbs on top of another man's shoulders, just so you can spit on his head. I've said it before, show us just how cool you are by setting up shop in a muslim country (again, since you brought them into this) and speak-up against religion then. But you won't - cause despite the above, nobody's saying you're stupid.
(Old Spike)
"First, you are a 'believer'. You believe beyond a shadow of a doubt there is nothing."
This statement couldn't be more wrong! I do NOT believe that (a) god(s) exist as there simply is no evidence would support the hypothesis. Neither do I believe that there is a deity required to explain the universe and / or our existance.
So I am a non believer, i.e. an atheist.
I am NOT an "anti theist" (maybe Fry is) neither as I don't care what people personally believe unless it interferes with my life (christmas does).
Now BOTH of us are not "knowers" on this topic, you are a believer, I am not. You think there is enough evidence to support the hypothesis (however, if I remember correctly you never came up with any), I think there is none.
On other issues we both actually are believers, for example we both believe that there is sufficient evidence for efficiency of covid vaccination that we decided to get them (my wife got the booster today, I have it next week), we also trust the science on that.
Well, I see the evidence for Jesus as anecdotal, but even if he existed and wandered the earth this is still no evidence for a deity as such. Did he turn water into wine or was it a sham? Did he heal the sick or was his success similar to those "modern preachers" enriching themselves from the vulnerable and deluded? We will probably only find out if somone invents a time machine.
Lastly the hypocrasy is with you my friend. The society in which we lived in was achieved BY humans DESPITE, not because of religious sects, if we as a society wouldn't have evolved and learned to ignore parts of a "holy book" as such this would never have happened. Some have evolved even further and could completely let go of antiquated belief systems, others haven't. Now don't get me wrong (again) I don't want to belittle the achievements of our society and that many believers played an important role in this (and believe me, people with your superiority mindset most definitely did not).
But hey, letting go of something is harder for some than it is for others and then there's peer pressure and not to forget brainwashing of children from a very early age.......
(Site Administrator)
I said you believe with all your being that there is nothing. Some folks struggle their whole lives to have their faith be as sure as yours. Congratulations. And don't say you're not an anti-theist when the shoe fits you so nicely. To call yourself atheist is mere modesty on your part. Moving on,.. How were you incovenienced by the way? (genuinely curious).
As for calling the evidence anecdotal, it would seem that way to you given your cursory (at best) interest in the subject matter. So let's agree, once again, to disagree on this.
(Old Spike)
"I said you believe with all your being that there is nothing." again this is not correct.
Again it is the opposite: I don't see any evidence for this to be the case.
What evidence do YOU think is out there?
(Site Administrator)
I asked you first about the timing of your post and how Christmas 'interferes' with your life. Will you answer that for me? Otherwise this is you. This is you now..
(Old Spike)
I thought this was obvious?
But if it makes you happy:
Christmas and other religious holidays are interfering with everybody's life on a yearly basis. I would prefer not to get jesus' wrongly declared birthday shoved into my face every year and having to arrange my shopping and business habits around it. Every employee should have an allowance (additional to "normal" holidays) of "personal" days off per year they can take whenever they want so they can practice the rituals of their respective religious sects or do whatever they choose to do. There is no need whatsoever for (almost) the whole country shutting down for a day or two because of people's beliefs. Job done, freedom of choice.
Especially christmas has turned from what it was intended to be into a commercial frenzy, the mood only really lightened by the odd yt video of spoilt brats getting the wrrong gift or christmas tree (also a pagan invention btw) accidents involving fat people or pets. You of all people should actually be in favour of this......
Also I don't mind honking at people with a bumper sticker like that, if it makes them happy whilst they start moving I am happy.
(Old Spike)
So, I replied, don't want to return the favour? Didn't expect you to tbh, so don't beat yourself up over it....
(Site Administrator)
Oh, man, I'm sorry that you thought your answer somehow satisfactorily answered the question, beyond your usual reply of I live in a christian-founded democratic republic so I feel it's important we be more evolved and not shove Jesus in my face and we should give up the history, culture, founding principles and very mindset that allowed my country to be the bastion of freedom that it is, to make room for those who want to impose their new and better way instead. Take your hand off the 'organized religion is the source of all things evil cause Dawkins said, grenade' but let the other guys keep holding it.. Is that about right? Yeah, thought so.
Anyway, getting to your question: 'As far as your prophets go, it really doesn't matter: you can't prove (other than anecdotal) that Jesus (or "your" god) existed'
There is evidence that is out there and easily googleable, so I won't bore you, but if you want an atheist's deep dive on the subject, can I suggest:
Person of Interest by J.Warner Wallace, forensics expect. Link above to YouTube video. But basically, we know that Jesus existed because if you dismiss His existence, you've still got the problem of a huge, Jesus-shaped hole left behind.
And with all sincerity, wishing you and yours a Happy New Year.
(Old Spike)
Well I asked you what you think, but happy new year anyway.
(Site Administrator)
You got my response. Evidence of Jesus's very real existence and contribution is all around you. Some of us are satisfied by going off of faith and don't feel the need to declare it or justify it further to those who, as is their right, don't. I'd just add here in more direct response along the lines of what you're looking for, that myth, whether Zeus or Mythras didn't have the ability to make the same impact. Cheers.
(Old Spike)
Doesn't matter. Jesus won. Mithras....myth.
Humans copy each other. We look to each other for guidance, direction, instruction, teaching, and information. Over time the information distorts and changes just enough and we get something that looks like it has progressed or evolved.
(Old Spike)
His name was Iesa pronouncead as - Iyesa
(Site Administrator)
heck, i just want to know how if Mythras was borne out of rock before the time of man.. who were these shephards that have now made their way into the story? I mean, if an unbiased journalist like Stephen Fry says it, it must be accurate.
(Old Spike)
The shepherds are time travelers
(Site Administrator)
See, that's the right answer. And while we're on the subject of time-travel.. those accurately-depicted angels seem kind of familiar. Just saying..
and..