Canine Super Powers

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daftcunt's picture

Define "bad".

 

Dogs like consistancy behaviour hence many behavioural problems have their origin in handlers acting inconsistant or inadvertantly re-inforcing unwanted behaviour, they also (unlike many people) can learn and "unlearn". So I wouldn't underwrite the statement that they "mistrust" without having actually read the relevant study. 

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stokkebye's picture

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Hey man, IM going to go out on a limb here and see if you might be able to set aside our animosity towards each other as I would like to ask you a question about dogs, since you do have more knowledge about them then anyone I personally know. Im about to get a white shepard puppy and I want to train him for protection as well as be a part of my family, I got a 4 yr old girl and I want her to grow up with a dog/buddy. As you know I live near a shitty city with alot of crime, I've since moved out of the city and into the suburbs but I want a dog that can tear into someone if need be. Like if someone attacks her while she is walking with her mother or another dog attacks her, or breaks into the house, something like that. I dont want an aggressive dog but one that knows how to fuck someone up if he needs to. Got any suggestions on training? Books to read, techniques to use, etc... I am very good with dogs and grew up with them, I'm confident I can learn how to train them, just need to learn how to.

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daftcunt's picture

I don't know the breed "white shepherd" but if they are anything like german or belgium shepherd (maybe even working line) and you want them as a family dog as well as for protection I would say DON'T. Especially if you want to do the training yourself and have limited training experience.

Neither would I get a Rottweiler or a Doberman.

I would get a pitbull, a bullterrier or an american staffordshire terrier. THIS IS NO JOKE! Get one that will be around 25-30kg as an adult, you can probably get a puppy from a shelter.

 

The mentioned breeds are extremely loyal to humans and hava a high pain threshold, so, in contrary to shepherds or labs, they can take rough play from kids (although I don't recommend it) without ever even snapping at them. It is extremely unlikely that such a dog attacks a person "out of their own will"  (the handlers of fighting dogs will actually go into the fighting ring with them in order to separate them and they definitaly don't want to get bitten). If a bully breed bites people something went seriously wrong in the environment they are kept in.

 

Regardless of which breed you get I recommend to get them castrated in order to avoid stress and anxiety issues due to competition with other males and frustration of not having access to females. Get this done when the dog is fully grown at about a year old to avoid bone structure issues and problems with fear in later life.

Socialise the dog with EVERYTHING they probably encounter in their lives as soon as possible (from say 8 weeks old). Vets recommend to wait until they are fully vaccinated but then they may develop behavioural issues due to lack of socialisation that in some cases last their whole life.

 

In order to train the dog I would strongly recommend to get a professional dog trainer that works with  positive reinforcement, NOT a "balanced" trainer or a Cesar Millan style trainer. There are several reasons for this, the main one being that ANY aversive methods are to be avoided when training the dog as this always creates stress, even and ESPECIALLY when dealing with protection dogs. I can go into this in further detail if you are interested.

 

If trainers talk about dominance in any other relation than resource competition run, and fast. Avoid anyone promoting choke, prong or electric collars as training aids. 

 

Any and ALL dog training can and should be done without aversive methods. Aversive methods do actually work but the risk of fucking it up is extremely high even with people that have done it all their lives.

 

Books are nice but dog training is hands on hence, again, I recommend to get an experienced trainer that can SHOW YOU what to do and is also able to explain the science behind it, this is money way better spent.

 

For protection training you will have to go to a trainer anyway as the equipment needed, like armored suits, is really expensive. Also this is very specialised high level obedience training.

 

Check this out:

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCRyHBkIJ90SZNRyq1iVda5g
https://www.youtube.com/user/GlasgowDogTrainer

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC4pnBzx4OMAhkgjHmVRV4PQ

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stokkebye's picture

THanks for the info and tips. I had to be able to sell the dog to my daughters mother who is hesitant about getting a dog in the first place(I think she was bitten as a kid and did not grow up with one), so pits are way out of the qeustion. I have to go with the White German Shepard, I already put a deposit down and picking him up next week and it was the way I sold it to my girlfriend(They are good looking dogs).

 

I might breed them, so a female for him might be coming 1-2 years down the road.

 

Yeah I would like to know more about the "balanced" method, is it still not a good technique if it is coming from me, the alpha male of the pack so to speak? Isn't that what they would experience in their pack? 

 

Ill check out the links later tonight.

 

Also, what do you recommend for the diet? Raw meat, eggs with rice, etc... or is dryed dog food good enough.

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daftcunt's picture

The dominance theory has been debunked a very long time ago for wolves by the same people that created it.

 

Dogs are not wolves! You are not a dog or the "alpha" (this is a term favoured almost exclusively favoured by alt right rhetorik these days anyway)

Dogs are social animals generally living in a family setting and are exactly that: family dogs, NOT pack dogs. There are environments in which dogs may have to live in a pack but this would not be their first choice. 

 

 

 

90% of what Cesar Millan tells us is based on his own observations and the conclusions drawn by it and unfortunately utter bullshit without any scientific basis. 
If you are interested in the science behind it there actually are good books around (search O'Heare) but this really is scientific. A good book about dogs in general is "Dogs" by Coppinger.

 

"Balanced" trainer are usually trainers coming from traditional training methods (like Millan) that can't or don't want to fully let go of their traditions. They call it balanced because it sounds good but again in doing this they show their lack of understanding of how learning works. I would urge you to read my prior post again, it is a lot of information.

 

Regarding diet: Each dog is different so what one dog eats every day another may react allergic to. Unless they are hopelessly overbred breed specific diet is unnecessary. Get quality dog food with low grain content or try "BARF".

 

German Sheperds (Like Labs or Golden Retrievers and others) are "mouthy" i.e. they like to explore using their mouths and teeth. Bite inhibition and stopping to touch people with their teeth will have to be first priority in your educational process, "puppy bites" hurt like hell.... There are of course averse methods for doing this but, again, I recommend to use positive re-inforcement to achieve this, a qualified trainer will show you how to achieve this, it is simple and way more effective than slapping or kicking the dog. Money spent on education is money well spent. 

 

Had to look it up as this dog is not common here: White german sheperds are bred from an even more limited gene pool than the regular ones so prepare for breed related health issues (of course the breeder will tell you "don't worry mine are fine"). Although they apparently originated from some "working line" they are beauty breeds now and thus some also may have inherited behavioural issues.

 

FINALLY: DON'T breed to sell.

Not only will you create an environment for the dog that is counter productive to your protection goals, the whole set up will have a different dynamic.

 

I know backyard breeding looks like making easy money and is hard to follow up by the taxman as it is a virtually unregulated market. 

I personally don't know of any responsible professional breeder, so I despise backyard breeders even more. I am sure you aim to do a better job than others but with your extremely limited dog experience I would strongly recommend another line of business. One large breed "protection" dog will be enough, believe me, you don't want to learn the hard way as this may include harm to your kids.

 

Also, this:

 

Pedigree Dogs Exposed from xiexinceline on Vimeo.

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stokkebye's picture

WTF? Thats sad, hard to watch the video with the dogs having seizures. I always thought the KC(AKC) papers were for making sure the dogs didnt get too inbreed, just the oppisite though, fuck I had no idea it was this bad. How sad. Yeah I did look at shelter dogs around here for a while now, all they have are pits, and lots of em.

This is what I asked them after asking my brother what I should ask of them:

I asked my brother who knows way more about dogs then I do on what I should ask of you about the dogs, I'll just paste what he said because there might be a "lost in translation" issue: "I like the white shepherds. Hard with them. GSD (German Shepherd dog) is way overbred. I don’t even think they can have “papers” since they are not recognized (or they weren’t). Ask for OFA hips on parents. And lineage on parents. Any eye issues? Obviously temperament issues as well try to see from parents directly." I asked what "papers" means and if I should ask for them. Are they the registration from AKC or something like that?

This was the breeders response:

They sure are recognized , only they can’t be placed in that westerners dog show. If they weren’t recognized they couldn’t be registered. They are AKC. Eye issues? Never heard of any eye issues in Gs. When I registered ours I got basic registration, so I didn’t go back in pedigrees. One of our males grandpup is #1 in nation in dock diving. We have not had hips tested. If we did our pups would be several hundred higher,, over the yrs we have been selling , we have nearly a 100 pups sold over the span of a few yrs. no one has ever had a hip problem! And as I told u I keep in contact with most buyers, so I’d be the first to know! We have one buyer, who now owns app 8 Gs he had all them tested. He says the one he purchased from me, had the highest score of all his. Our male is 7 never had any problems. 3 females also none with problems. U are welcome to friend me on FB and ask for references!! Lots of my friends on there are customers

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daftcunt's picture

Like I said I know almost nothing about this specific breed as they are not common here. I can only give very generic advice on the issue. 

 

Regarding the hips: make sure the "line of the back" of the parents is more like that of a Malinois rather than a typical beauty bred GSD.

 

According to this site
"The white German shepherd [...] is a mutation of the regular German shepherd dog breed. [...] The white coat is a result of a recessive gene in one of the parent dogs."

 

So basically they breed a genetic fault (similar to Rhodesian Ridgebacks), which, as mentioned before, limits the genepool quite severely.

 

 

Re the breeder: 

This is what anyone would say wanting to sell you something (car, house, dog, whatever) so try to find out by websearch. His friends on facebook may be just that, his friends.....

 

"...nearly a 100 pups sold over the span of a few yrs"

With 3 females, that is 30+ pups per female, which suggests they possibly do little else other than breeding.

 

Also: do we know that actually ALL of the pups are white and what they do with "normal" dogs from the litter should there be any (remember from the video that breeders of ridgebacks desperately try to find vets to kill the dogs born without a ridge and are happy enough to openly talk on camera about it)

 

I know this is a "glass half full" attitude but we have to remember this is how he makes his money (a 100k$ + in the "last few years").

 

I would do an extensive search to find out more about the breeder.

 

Re your brother:

What does he mean by "Hard with them."?

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